Boston Archdiocese releases non-discrimination policy.
.
Well intentioned, faithful Catholics often ask why gay couples would want their kids in Catholic school in the first place, especially since Catholic teaching condemns homosexual acts and anything resembling same sex marriage. I have to wonder, "Why not?" Perhaps these couples recognize the truth contained in Catholic teaching, and believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Catholic Church. So who wouldn't want their kids in a Catholic school? Other people see it as a case of dissidents infiltrating the Church in the attempt to change Catholic teaching.
.
This past week the Boston Archdiocese laid out guidelines for welcoming children from such households. I totally understand the fears many people have about this decision, especially since the guidelines contain the following instruction: "Each school should implement a recruitment and marketing program to maximize its enrollment consistent with its capacity and location." God only knows how some schools will market themselves.
.
Bad parenting and the role of Catholic education.
.
Like I always say however, my parents were in a civil marriage, alcoholic, promiscuous, my dad in and out of jail, oh - he was a Lutheran as well, and hated Catholic teaching on divorce and remarriage, they never went to Mass, we were on welfare, and by golly, my mom got us into Catholic school anyway. What if the nuns or the pastors would have told my fallen away Catholic mom to go to hell the way people want to tell same sex couples and their kids to go to hell? It is doubtful I would be a practicing Catholic today without having had that Catholic education.
.
Personally, I think many marriages are bad, and parenting is worse. I think it unfortunate that we have so many single parent families, and I'm totally against same-sex marriage, as well as single people adopting children. (I know!) But this isn't Little House On the Prairie, in large urban areas especially, there is a far different reality. When parents fail to train their kids for heaven, isn't that an opportunity for the Church to step in? After all, isn't this the era of the "new evangelization"?
.
"While Jesus was at table many tax collectors and sinners sat with Jesus and his disciples; for there were many who followed him... " - Today's Gospel, Mark 2: 13-17
.
For there were many sinners who followed him.
.
Though dissident groups praise the Boston Archdiocese for such an 'open' policy, I personally do not see the action as affirming the homosexual lifestyle, since parents must agree to having their children taught Catholic doctrine. Neither do I see the decision as a triumph. Archbishop Chaput of course has a different view and is against admitting children of same sex couples for fear of harming them further. Chaput has a point, but I'm still screwed up from my upbringing. Nevertheless Catholic education provided me with faith, hope, and charity - as well as an identity and a basis for some stability in my life. Sadly, the disconnect between dioceses and bishops points to the wider split in Catholic policy in this country. To be sure, opponents to the Boston policy have a right to be heard as well as the right to take the matter up with the Holy See. In the meantime, don't screw around with kids.
.
I would rather save souls.
.
Link: LifesiteNews
Terry
ReplyDeleteI don't know which way to go here. You make a great case for not hurting the kids and a Catholic education is what they need. On the other hand I could just see the kids coming home after school and talking about how they heard at school today that homosexuality is a sin and that same sex marriage is wrong. Will the parents say "oh the church is wrong about that." Then what?
Rick
I agree, these kids need Christ and they need to be in our schools but the problem is that our schools will change the truth to make the children feel welcome and that I'm against. Wait and see, these traditional parents are going to complain and that will be the real reason, then they will leave and either home school or make their own school as I have wittnessed in the past.
ReplyDeleteIf your parents are gay, alcoholic etc... your kids are not coming over to my home or vice versa. I have to protect my children and even at the cost of your childrens feelings. I'm sorry, I'm really sorry but I wont let Joseph hang out with the kid with three moms.
Here's how that works you have a mom who has a wife and then they divorced and then the mom gets a new wife. I suppose the kid also has a step mom - poor baby he's only in first grade and one mom has just died of cancer but I was told by another mom, "It's okay, he has other mom's" -As I thought profanities.
You wrote.. "Personally, I think many marriages are bad, and parenting is worse." - There's a blog post here... Why do you think these things and where are we headed next. I don't disagree but I don't see any resolution and I think we're past the point of no return.
+JMJ+
ReplyDeleteRick: Hi! How's it going? ;-)
Terry: I think I've mentioned that my brothers have a classmate who has "two daddies." His parents deliberately put him in a very small (only ten students his entire grade!) but still Catholic school, because they wanted to raise him in the Faith and to shield him, as much as possible, from the kind of taunts he might get in a bigger school (Catholic, public or international). Now that he's ready for high school, they realise it's time for him to go to one of the big Catholic prep schools--but they're also looking at the relatively smaller ones.
Anyway, this isn't what you're saying, but their experience has made me wonder whether Catholic schools are the safest place for children from such families, if bullying is still such a huge issue. Which says more about what the parents really think of Catholic teaching than what they'll actually tell their children.
'What if the nuns or the pastors would have told my fallen away catholic mom to go to hell the way people want to tell same sex couples and their kids to go to hell?"
ReplyDeleteThe difference is that your mother did not deny that she was a sinner, nor insist that the Church make the proclamation that she was not.
Terry, the differences, in addition to what Georgette said, are that while your mother was in a civil marriage with a Lutheran, she was still in a marriage that the Church understands. The Church also understands alcoholism and poverty and wanting your children to be grounded in their faith and to have a good education.
ReplyDeleteThis may seem like an outlandish analogy, but please hear me out. When a woman is raped and becomes pregnant, she is discouraged from seeking an abortion because even though the act was not consensual, the life of a perfectly innocent child is at stake. And that's kind of how I view this situation. Why punish the child? I do understand the concerns that when the children may be told at home the church is wrong on the issue. But what are they going to hear if they're banished from Catholic school? Will they have any opportunity to hear the truth?
ReplyDeleteSo far as who we let our kids associate with... my son is not permitted to visit the homes of children who come from undesirable situations, but those children are welcome in my home so long as they follow the rules. I have written about this before, but when God gave me my developmentally delayed son, He, in His wisdom, also gave me an assortment of other boys who have never seen family life, a decent home-cooked meal and loving parents who care about their children. We never know how we are being called upon to bear witness to the faith.
A bit off the subjwct here, but as far as the bullying goes especially in high school, where are the Catholic kids, boy or girl, to say stop! This isn't right.
ReplyDeleteRick
“…What if the nuns or the pastors would have told my fallen away Catholic mom to go to hell the way people want to tell same sex couples and their kids to go to hell? …”
ReplyDeleteYour mommy, in giving birth, did not commit the sin that cries out to Heaven for revenge.
There is absolutely no comparison.
I was in a pig pen once, and even though I was not a pig, I still came out filthy and smelling of pig.
The children of same sex do not have the Holy Angels hanging around their homes.
The have demons living with them.
Having innocent children in a classroom with them is like my pig pen experience.
Mexican Catholics are very aware of this. They act accordingly.
Whenever a drug lord is killed or captured, Holy Mother Church sends in Exorcist to exorcise the whole community that drug lord lived in, not just his home.
It is recognized in Catholic thinking that demons have a real presence.
Bringing in children of homosexual couplings brings in demons.
Fathers and mothers that are buried deep in mortal sin do not necessarily traffic with demons as directly as druggies or same sex.
Any Bishop or Priest that invites them in without requiring the repentance and change in lifestyle according to the will of God is inviting Satan to devour his sheep.
*
Terry - I tend to agree with Bishop Chaput.
ReplyDeleteThere was a young girl in my class who was being raised by a Mormon and a Catholic. The parents decided to have her spend half her time in my RE and half at the Mormon RE. I know!
Our Idaho young Catholic kids are very interested in Mormonism. It forced me into choosing my words verycarefully so as not to hurt the little girl. No one likes to inflict pain on a child but truth is truth. She was hurt anyway (and was often visibly upset) and finally quit coming.
I can't imagine what I would say if I had a kid in my class with two mommies.
I think Chaput is thinking of the bigger picture and what would be best for the child.
Adrienne, what do you think? Would you let your children go over to their home and vice versa?
ReplyDeleteWhat did Chaput say? I have enormous respect and admiration for him.
Pablo, I'm concerned for spiritual cooties and cross contamination as well.
This is a very complex and misunderstood problem both from the perspective of the good of the children of homosexual partners and for education of morals and ethics within the Catholic community.
ReplyDeleteI don't believe I have ever heard of, at least in my lifetime, of known homosexual partners who are sexually active, have adopted a child and want the community to perceive this as a moral lifestyle who believe the teachings of the Catholic Church and want those teachings taught to their child or children.
The difference between divorce, promiscuity, alcoholism and other family problems - and active homosexuality -- is there is no cultural movement to adopt alcoholism as people who have the civil right to call their drunkenness or promiscuity morality. There are no civil and equal rights movements for any other forms of adultery. Chances are, nobody knew about your parents promiscuity because it was a private matter. They aren't blabbing about it or forcing teachers to say sleeping around with their secretary is civil right and it means society owes them health insurance. Parents who sleep around don't have pride parades about it to force others to accept their immorality. If they did, teachers, priests and others would go weak kneed about it as they have with contraception, abortion and ever other kind of 'right' civil society is trying to get Catholics to 'change' their teaching on.
As a result of the cultural acceptance that alcoholism and promiscuity was an aberration of morality, as a child, and you were never told at home that it was moral, you were not intuitively compelled to defend those situations as moral. Consequently, when teachers taught us to avoid drunkness and sleeping around, nobody challenged this din the classroom. Our schools were not battlefields of opinion in a world where truth reason can be seen as consensus among peers.
This is what is happening in secular schools and we do not need or want this in our Catholic schools because it will be a disaster on the reality of teaching them the tools to find objective truth for the rest of their lives.
We want and need our Catholic schools to not be hostile environments to teach Catholic morality.
We don't want to, when Mrs. and Mrs show up at the school play, to have to teach our children, when they are too young to process it, the problems with morality and salvation of this family. It is doing a terrible disservice to the family. It makes them lepers. Kids don't have the social skills to know how to then embrace the child or the family. They actually are afraid of them. This creates rejection and all the self-esteem problems that come with it. It literally ruins their lives to be in an environment where the community must teach and will teach that what your parents are doing in their own bedrooms is evil.
This is very damaging to the child and the family. Catholics who are faithful to teaching will never accept the situation as moral and will have to teach their own children not to accept it either.
It is really not possible to make Catholic schools places where teaching can be taught freely while saying you want to fill the seats with the adopted children of lesbian and homosexual lovers.
It is a lose/lose situation and will have very dramatic and upsetting situations inside of every school.
Terry, I agree with you. You know how it feels not to fit neatly in the box; sometimes people need to "walk a mile in the mocassins" of those they would exclude.
ReplyDeleteGreat discussion going on here.
ReplyDeleteLittle Way - I really like what you have to say. When I was little, my friends parent's welcomed me into their homes just like you do. I was very fortunate. God bless you.
"...You know how it feels not to fit neatly in the box; sometimes people need to "walk a mile in the moccasins" of those they would exclude..."
ReplyDeleteI do not need to walk one inch in the high heels of some fool married to another man to know God blew the homosexuals, lesbians and their sympathizers right to Hell as an example to those that would choose this sin.
He also dropped into Hell those people that thought they could make Priests of themselves in the example of the Sons of Aaron and the sons of Corey...
God has come to terms that man is sinful by nature.
He has drawn the line that we may know how far is too far...
*
God Bless you Terry Nelson. I'm happy to have found your blog. And I do wonder why we bother to call what we practice faith when we think our children can't withstand the presence of other innocent children who are victims of their own circumstances. Why light a lamp and hide it under a basket?
ReplyDeleteDoes God not desire the conversion and repentance of active homosexuals - are there not people who comment here regularly who were able to see their sinful ways and found the love and grace of God? Does God sit up in heaven and say "Just wait 'til you're dead, buddy - I'm blowing you to hell as an example to the others (especially since the others can't see them in hell)"? Or does He work tirelessly for the salvation of us lazy, undeserving, ungrateful mortals?
ReplyDeleteDoes God not make his works known through the conversion of hardened sinners?
Do children in tragically sinful situations deserve to hear the Gospel?
The problem, as I see it, and as someone mentioned way at the top, is that the Catholic schools in many cases are NOT preaching the Gospel out of fear of offending children and their parents. "Mommy, my religion teacher said divorce and remarriage is a sin" is not something most RE departments wants to deal with, though it's exactly here that we can be changing the culture.
If we are speaking about welcoming people into our homes - that is a different situation, isn't it?
ReplyDeleteHomes are not formal teaching institutions where the objective of crossing the threshold is to sit in a chair and hear ethics and morals. I don't have the right to sit my daughter's friends (some of whom are lesbian and homosexual) on the couch and have a lesson about salvation. That is what Catholic schools are for.
I know of many parishes that recruit gays here in Boston. When they get them in the pews, I don't know of a single one of them that teaches objective truth about active homosexual lifestyles.
Those teachings are at first challenged by the people who don't want to hear them and feel the need to defend what is going on inside of their parents or their own bedrooms - because society accepts it. The community breaks out in conflicts. It sucks the joy and unity. Pastors and teachers avoid the subject matter and the community becomes a place where teachings about sin and virtue are completely avoided.
This is what happens as a practical matter. I know of many Catholic gay politicians who brought their children into Catholic schools. From that moment onward, the moral teaching of the Church was silenced. It is what it is.
Catholics do not want lesbian mocassins brought into Catholic schools and have their children asked to try them on and walk in them for a mile so that they won't make a judgment about Church teaching. That is the antithesis of Catholics bringing their Catholic children into Catholic schools.
A few more thing to contemplate about the analogy of embracing a child into our homes who has alcoholism or promiscuity challenges in their own home:
ReplyDeleteIn a home situation, we control by invitation. We would not open the doors to inviting in situations where the sinful behavior, be it having people sauced from their addictions or bringing their extramarital lovers being affectionate in front of us and our children into our own homes.
The same does not hold true in a school community. The Cardinal, pastor, principal is bringing a family into his "home" of families that embrace their sins as virtues and will visibly show signs of it - holding hands, embracing and affection - when they are present in our community. At functions, affairs, fundraisers, school plays, parent-teacher nights.
Every one of these family situations should be privately counseled by priests, teachers and social workers. But if your daddy sat in a corner in a loving embrace with his bottle or his secretary at the Christmas concert, the pastor would hear the cries of the same community who is speaking out about this situation.
If homosexuals and lesbians embrace the teachings of the Church, they are celibate, they are not living together and the conflict, certainly goes away. That is not the situation we currently have on our hands.
To complicate a complicate matters - What do you do when the kid your kid wants to bring home IS gay?
ReplyDeleteMy solution- no one is ever allowed to be alone with anyone of any sex in any area of the house unsupervised by me.
"...What do you do when the kid your kid wants to bring home IS gay?..."
ReplyDeleteYou drop to your knees and ask God where you went wrong.
This post has a picture of Jack Black, an actor.
His sole purpose as an actor is to teach sin.
The Yaqui Professor in Tucson; to teach sin.
Good and decent children do not have jack black as a mentor or friend.
Good and decent children do not have creepy people like the Yaqui professor as friends.
Your kid bringing home a gay kid?
Big red flag.
*
Pablo, I agree with the drop to your knees part. My daughter who wants to be a nun be-friends kids who other kids shun. It was a hypothetical - she didn't bring this kid home. I've probably brought gay priests home myself... Just sayin' I wouldn't know.
ReplyDeleteOh, in fact I know I have.. one died of aids.
"I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you."
ReplyDeleteLuke 10:19
I am reading all of this with great interest. I have a bunch to say. But I'm going to wait until someone/anyone wants to pull this strand into the conversation:
ReplyDeleteEspecially in large metro areas like Boston, does it not seem likely that the real reason the homosexual couples want to put their kids in the Catholic schools is simply for academic/socio-economic benefit? As in (like it is in the area where I live): "I'm sending my kid to the local Catholic school because it's a hell of a lot better than that public school that gets bad academic reports each year and is filled with inner-city trash."
Let's face it. Many, many people put their kids in Catholic schools only because they're a step above public schools, with the often addded benefit that your kid will get to start associating with better famililes, which, if you play your cards right, leads to better opportunities and acceptance for your child. Many, many people (some Catholics included) could give a rat's ass about the moral/ethical/religious aspect of the school.
Mrs. Belinda,
ReplyDeleteDying of aids does not make one a homosexual.
Aids can be gotten by a number of ways other than homosexual contact.
May God have had mercy on the Padre's soul.
*
True Pablo, but he was gay.(He was also very nice.) -Love the sinner hate the sin.
ReplyDeleteCharlotte, Last year a teacher at our school was "Let go" in our grade school because she was too Catholic and I've heard of parents taking their children out of our highschool because it also was too Catholic. I would rather they leave then make it miserable for the rest of us who give a crap, but it's sad for their children.
Charlotte--
ReplyDeleteI will agree with you..here in Ogden Utah (inner city) the public school teachers have to deal with gangs, druggies, and teach class in Spanish to illegals and children of illegals who refuse to learn English..meanwhile bright kids sit in a corner twiddling their thumbs and texting all day..oh yeah..they MIGHT take some AP classes. also the fact that if you're not Mormon you're not shit..and non-Mormon kids are bullied terribly while the teachers look the other way.
Oh yeah--if I had kids I would scrape every penny I could to send them to private school--Catholic or otherwise--to keep them out of the public school sitution here..
Little Way--Growing up our house was open to any of our friends...My grandmother always toaught us to have the door open and another place set at the table in case Jesus came a calling...alot of my friends came from sad family situations, but there was peace in my house, even if for a couple of hours to hang out or do homework or milk and cookies....
Sara
Thanks everyone for being so considerate of one another in this discussion - God bless you. I prayed for the kids tonight and thought to myself, now I know why Our Lady weeps.
ReplyDeleteBy reading SOME (but not all)of the comments here, it's nice to see the old streotype of religious folks as nasty, whacky hypocrites ALIVE AND WELL! Screwtape would be pleased.
ReplyDeleteAlso--I'm not sure what it is in other areas--but St Joseph Catholic School in Ogden, Utah has 24 percent of its student body who are not Catholic..
ReplyDeleteSara
"We don't want to, when Mrs. and Mrs show up at the school play, to have to teach our children, when they are too young to process it, the problems with morality and salvation of this family. It is doing a terrible disservice to the family. It makes them lepers. Kids don't have the social skills to know how to then embrace the child or the family. They actually are afraid of them. This creates rejection and all the self-esteem problems that come with it. It literally ruins their lives to be in an environment where the community must teach and will teach that what your parents are doing in their own bedrooms is evil."
ReplyDeleteWhy would a kid "be afraid" of the kid with two mothers or fathers? Maybe they sense adult anger and disgust against the child? Seems to me that I learned from watching my kids, that they're naturally accepting of their peers, willing to befriend and embrace another kid, unless hurt or marginalized by them, until we adults teach them that that child is different or to be ostracized. Then they treat the child as a leper, all at the child's expense of our self-righteousness.
"And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted."
"And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead. And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side. But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him, And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him. And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee. Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves? And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise."
Sorry Terry--had to step out of my exile to comment on this one. Returning to the hinterlands. Ace
Dear Tubbs, Parenting is an uphill battle as we try to correct our children's errant thoughts and actions. We try to protect them from people who may desire to hurt them either physically, mentally, or spiritually and we would have to be fools to think that these people do not exist.
ReplyDeleteGod is going to hold parents accountable for every word and action which we have said to our children and we will pay for everything which we have failed to tell/ teach our children as well as everything we have exposed them to. We parents who are desperately trying to raise people who will love and serve the Lord struggle to keep the real world out of our homes as best as we can.
Please cut us some slack. I am personally not trying to hurt anyone else or their child. I love kids. I'm not trying to come off as self righteous either.
But can you see what parents are up against in this modern world?
BTW...How many children do you have Tubbs?
Belinda,
ReplyDeleteTwo. and that's really irrelevant, isn't it? - since the shoe fits....
LOL, and I wasn't particularly referring to your posts.
Now don't forget to check under your bed tonight before you retire, those little queer spiritual cooties, you know. Douse it with holy water!
Terry, I'm checking out for a while. This has all gotten too
surreal.
Mother's that protect their children should not be mocked...
ReplyDeleteHoly Water is a sacramental.
We should not abuse its purpose or use.
God always laughs last; some people need to remember that.
A little girl has written a song about it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pxRXP3w-sQ
It is a good refection.
*
Tubbs, I do think it's revelant as many people who like to comment have no experience in parenting yet they seem to have all of the answers. Just because you were a child once - that doesn't make you qualified to judge how other people parent. You have to actually be a parent before I would even consider your advice.
ReplyDeleteThe battle for our children souls begins in their minds and if anyone or anything can claim that territory then they win. So when I say spiritual cooties I am half joking, but not entirely. I highly doubt that my daughter would still want to go to the convent if she had been raised in a more liberal bent household. I felt it my duty to protect her from as much as possible. I believe there is sin in giving too much information on matters which the Lord finds offensive anyway and I think that some information about gay activity that I have learned has also displeased Christ but I can't unlearn it now can I?
***************
This blog is one of the most hatefilled blogs on the net and I can't understand why and especially when there can be such wonderful saint stories or stories of Christ and his church and even when most of my dear blogger buddies came from over here. I don't understand it.
Tubbs,
ReplyDeleteYour conjecture about hating the child and passing that hate off to our own children is off-base.
The teachings of the Church are what they are. Children have the natural instinct to be be leery of doing things that they are taught is evil. It stands to reason that when they see people doing it openly, they are leery of them. Children don't have the maturity to process their emotions, intellect and spirituality and have it all come out in the wash.
I can't imagine sitting any child of lesbians or homosexual partners and telling them that what their parents are doing in their own bedroom will lead them to hell should they not surrender their sexuality to God and remain celibate for the rest of their lives. The emotional ruptures caused to the family borders child abuse.
Every classroom that teaches what the Church teaches is now going to break out into a fight. Those fights are going to make hostile environments for teachers to teach. Many will go silent. The souls who fail to get the teachings in Catholic classrooms are robbed of the tools to make choices between good and bad.
At the end of the day, they have robbed every Catholic child of their salvation, their rightful inheritance, the presence of Christ in their soul.
This will have a negative impact for everyone involved.
Ms. McKinley,
ReplyDelete"Your conjecture about hating the child and apssing that hate off to our children is off-base"
I have two posts up above. Could you kindly point out where I make this conjecture?
Thanks