Gramick, Cordileone, DeBernardo
According to Sr. Jennine Gramick, she also had a nice meeting with Bishop Paprocki not too long ago - they disagreed on Church teaching though.
Michael Bayly? Can you hear me now?
This is the type of dialogue gay and lesbian 'dissenting' Catholics have been waiting for.
Remember, I've maintained the New Ways Ministry approach has been the doctrinal slant in most dioceses and parochial schools - especially colleges and universities - since the 1980's. Readers may disagree, but it's true - and now, today, with the new homophile gay Catholic movement, there is an opening to dialogue with the dissenting half. I knew it would come to this - although I'm surprised how quickly these things have developed. Gramick - though forbidden to 'teach' or work for New Ways has continued to do so while continuing to influence the clergy and hierarchy - behind the scenes? Until today I wasn't aware of the latest encounters.
I definitely agree that such open dialogue is far better than 'shunning' - something the Amish do and some very traditionalist Catholics would like to do with these types. Nevertheless, I have to agree with Fr. Martin who had this to say about the meeting with Cordileone: This is a significant attempt at Catholic bridge building, and an "encounter" (to use a favorite word of Pope Francis) for which we can be grateful.
The Holy Father has helped us open our hearts - to listen to one another and not be afraid. I disagree with the principles of New Ways Ministry, I'm not a 'new homophile', but there is a different reality today among younger people - to shun and condemn 'them' is difficult for contemporary gay persons to understand as charity in truth. No. I'm a die hard Courage type of guy - I'm convinced the Church is effective in bringing Christ to all people, straight or LBBTQIXYZ, in and through the ordinary form of things. The sacraments, the Mass, prayer and self-denial, love of neighbor, and so on ... it works. We encounter Christ in and through the Church. We encounter one another on the way - and we befriend the stranger even when we don't understand everything.
That said, here are a couple 'takes' from New Ways blog on the meeting with the Archbishop of San Francisco:
Two groups took Cordileone up on his offer for a personal meeting: New Ways Ministry and DignityUSA. Earlier this autumn, Cordileone met in San Francisco with representatives from Dignity. New Ways Ministry’s meeting occurred on December 15th at our offices in Mount Rainier, Maryland, while the Archbishop was in the Washington, DC area on other church business.
DeBernardo met Cordileone and drove him to our offices. Gramick introduced herself, while Matt Myers and Bob Shine, two New Ways Ministry staff members, were also on hand to greet the archbishop and serve a light lunch of sandwiches. After the archbishop opened with a prayer, Cordileone, DeBernardo, and Gramick shared some of their life stories and experiences. Both Cordileone and DeBernardo have similar backgrounds, sharing an Italian heritage, and having attended public schools while being very much involved with the Catholic Church. Gramick talked about her Polish roots as an only child in a non-practicing Catholic family, but surrounded by Catholics until graduate school when she was first introduced to the gay community.
As the conversation progressed, they discussed how Catholic groups with opposing views on marriage can better understand and speak with one another. Cordileone mentioned Pope Francis’ idea of “encounter,” of meeting people where they are and beginning a dialogue with them. Cordileone stressed the importance of breaking down stereotypes on each side of the issue. He noted that both groups sometimes say things that cause harm to the other side, and that the harm is often not intended.
New Ways Ministry asked for advice on how LGBT Catholics and their families can initiate dialogues with their local bishops. He noted that bishops often have many demands on their time and many requests for appointments. A more practical route may be for people to request meetings with directors of diocesan ministries, such as family life, or with other chancery officials. - Source
It's beginning to look a lot like Christmas.
(Crap! Now I have to be nice to Sr. Jeannine. What?)
What?!
I had to look up "New Ways Ministry," and what their story was. Terry, you mean to tell me you don't want to participate in "The Gathering and DRAINING of Desire," workshop???? I kid you not, that is the title!
ReplyDeleteAnyway, at least they are talking about things constructively like the workshop seems to be geared toward gay clergy and how to keep their vows. etc. Still, I have a feeling a calming circle is involved and some drum beating and I have no idea why anyone would willingly attend a workshop unless your probation officer forced you to go....
Where did you see that?
DeleteI don't read the Bondings blog - or most gay blogs.- unless someone calls my attention to it - like the Fr. Martin Facebook entry did.
I'm not into workshops either.
I saw it on their website when I looked them up..I love the name..its sounds like one of those mega churches that pop up around us in the burbs. The one near me is "Family Harvest," which sounds quite creepy. Anyway, they seem a good earnest group that kept on keeping on despite getting "push back," from a lot of people I would think.
DeleteAnd yes, Terry, I love the cartoon and would love to have that made up for my Christmas Cards!
Draining desire -- even if one is a chaste celibate -- is not a good thing. We're not automatons. Anyway, that's all I got ... love the cartoon!
ReplyDeleteI thought you'd appreciate the header more.
DeleteI love me some Forrest Tucker! LOL
DeleteHi, Terry! I also recently saw the story about the folks at New Ways Ministry meeting with Archbishop Cordileone, and posted about it just today.
ReplyDeleteI'll check it out - I thought of you immediately because no one would to talk to you or your group directly in this archdiocese - and now people elsewhere are doing just that.
DeleteOne wonders, though, if this kind of bridge-building is even necessary anymore.
ReplyDeleteNot too long ago, it was held that the Church is to be the formator of our consciences. Remember when we had the obligation to follow our consciences, but also to inform them according to the teachings of the Church?
Well, now that is being turned on its head. Listen to the Pope just today:
“And today is also a day to pray for our Mother Church, because of so much sterility within the people of God. A sterility arising from egoism, from power … when the Church believes she can do everything, that she can take charge of the consciences of the people, walk along the road of the Pharisees, of the Sadducees, along the road of hypocrisy, yes, the Church is sterile. Let’s pray. That this Christmas our Church may be open to the gift of God, that she may allow herself to be surprised by the Holy Spirit and be a Church that gives birth, a mother Church. Many times I think that in some places the Church is more like an entrepreneur than a mother.”
I think I can read between the lines: a surprise of the Holy Spirit could well be that we leave the decision to take communion (if we're divorced and remarried) up to the individual's conscience, which after all, has been raped and abused by the entrepreneurial Church through her discipline which stems from her doctrine.
So, if that's so, why build bridges? Why even pretend like there is a continuity or point of agreement to be reached (apart from the open-ended appeal to the subjectivity of the individual of course)? Perhaps the sisters who have been suspected of dissenting from the Church are victims of entrepreneurial Pharisees.
I see what you're saying. I actually think we agree insofar as I see the Church - the sacraments - Christ crucified as the bridge - Catherine of Siena has deep reflections on that. It is what I mean when I say the the Church is fine - the door of the confessional is always open, all of our needs are met in and through the sacramental life.
DeletePersonally, I don't get the divisions any longer. As for who goes to communion - it's not my business.
The Church is still the formator of consciences - but I can only examine my own.
It may be "fine" for you and I, in a personal sense, who know that. But what of those who don't or who are struggling? What of the divorced who have struggled to be faithful to the Church so as to be united to Christ in communion and so refrained from remarrying? This is how the 'new mercy' is hypocritical and hollow. You have a cross that many don't bear and I can imagine that the scandal of so many 'gay Catholics' only adds to it. This is no different. I think you can understand that.
DeleteAnd what of those divorced people? Hopefully they did so as they felt it was "right," and it did indeed bring them closer to Christ. If they simply refrained from remarrying because it was a Church "rule," and they were "scared to go to Hell," then what kind of grace did that bring them to begin with? Why would my life somehow bring scandal to Terry or anyone else who is following the Church teaching..my take is he is doing it as he believes it is right and it is right for his life and brings him closer to God.What would me or anyone else life impact that?
DeleteI think that is what the Pope is saying, to stay away from the "sterility," of rules which may have not meaning to many people who follow them like they were in the third grade.." I can't lie or its a sin and Im gonna go to hell.." but don't understand the teaching and dont "embrace," it so that grace doesnt come to them. In other words, what good is being "good," if its just a checklist that will get you to Heaven though it never brought any joy to your life or others as they were just "going through the motions." ?
Mack, by bringing up Terry's "life," I did not at all imply a comparison with yours. He is seeking to follow Church teaching.
DeleteYour ideal of really following "the rules" because I actually believe in them is indeed a great good - the Church directs us to that ultimate goal of pure love for God in the act of contrition. Yet the Church also allows for contrition to be imperfect - that is, out of fear of the pains of Hell. Are you saying you have a problem with that?
You see, until you accept at least obedience to the Church as a minimum, such an appeal to the ideal rings hollow: he who is faithful in little things will be faithful in the greater things too, but not first without those little matters.
There is no "this is right for my life" when it comes to certain teachings. You're on board or you're not, with Him or against Him. No pretending like there is.
I did not feel that you were comparing Terry's life up to my life..I was using my life, (which you would consider giving scandal say if someone like Terry lived next door to me) as an example. I believe I mentioned that Terry was following Church teaching did I not? I also was answering your post using an example of what I "think" the Holy Father is saying, no where did I mention you or even think of you when using that example. I have no idea what is going on in your heart so I would have no business or desire to say so.
DeleteWhat I am saying is that say I don't murder someone just because I feel that I would go to Hell, and not because I truly value life..that is not a very "evolved," conscience. Its like telling a child they should not hit someone. They don't do it because they know its wrong..but it is not until they are older that they understand what is wrong about it. Yes in either cases if it stops someone from doing harm its great ( I often think that it is great that there is organized religion simply to stop some people from not being able to control themselves...) but does that give you immediate access to eternal life with God...because you followed the rules just because you don't want to go to Hell. I don't know, but its an interesting conversation. So no I don't have a problem with that (I DO have a problem that the Church and others have used the threat of Hell to control people for the Church's own purpose but that is another discussion.)
Do you have a problem with Jesus Christ warning people about Hell?
DeleteI don't think he does.
DeleteWell, then why take issue with the Church doing so? We believe he who hears the Church, hears Christ, don't we?
DeleteWhew. Good to know they didn't let Cordileone drive...
ReplyDeleteLOL! Forgot about that.
DeleteTerry, if you haven't seen this, you may want to check it out - an article on the Fifteen Minutes for the New Homophiles
ReplyDeletehttp://www.crisismagazine.com/2014/fifteen-minutes-new-homophiles
I did see it and commented - then commented again - poor Austin - I told him I had forgotten about all the snarky comments he gets from the crowd I was saying he needed to be nicer to. Poor guy really takes a lot of criticism.
DeleteThanks for letting me know though.
Terry, you are kidding me. Ruse is completely nasty to anyone who disagrees with him, and his many "logic holes," even when you are being polite when answering. If he gets pushed into a corner that his own arguments got him into he comes out with an insult or a slur..(mostly outdated homophobic ones, involving the posters perceived effeminacy..) look at the tone of the article..."pursed lips," and such. The article is instructive in that Ruse unknowingly reveals some of his "issues," the biggest one being that it burns his ass that the "homophiles," got a great spread in a widely circulated newspaper while he does not.
Delete