I just get nervous with the calling out of the Bishops, but then again, I wonder the same things he does sometimes.
How ARE laypeople supposed to react to bishops neglecting their roles? More importantly, how are they supposed to do it without falling into the trap of presuming and assuming too much?
Also, I do not think I need to point it out, but "pastoral", though it often is, is not ALWAYS a code-word for "cowardice" and "agreement".
Important note for this post: My tone of voice, if I were actually speaking, is a calm tone, sitting across from a friend at a cozy coffee house, trying to understand their point of view. Picture a rainy Fall evening, steamed windows from coffee brewing and the Indigo Girls softly lulling in the background. My point, this is not a screaming, who do you think you are, post.
So Thom, this is what I don't get about you, are you saying that you think undermining Church teaching on matters of sexuality is a good thing? That Gay, in essence, "Is Good?" That "embracing one's sexual orientation is a path to holiness?" That that is 'being real' before God? That to do otherwise is to harm oneself psychologically and spiritually?
And assuming that that is what you believe, do you just believe that one should be honest about this before God and himself and his confessor or that he should be "out," "Loud and Proud?" And if yes, how do you reconcile the gay subculture and Queer Theory with Church teaching?
Not judging, just trying to understand where you're coming from.
Pablo - read this: http://www.citypages.com/2005-10-05/news/the-sins-of-the-father/
I knew the priest who murdered his accusers - he loved the traditional Latin Mass and all of the accoutremonts and did his best to implement it. No one is exempt. I actually know gay traditionl priests. Reality bites.
My statement was ZERO LGBT groups at Traditional Chapels.
Everyone is inclined to sin.
However, even with this inclination, some have drawn the battle lines and refused to surrender to the forces of Hell.
Our Lady mentions them in her message at La Salette:
Rome will lose the faith and will become the seat of Antichrist.
… I summon the true disciples of God who lives and reigns in heaven; I summon the true imitators of Christ made man, the one true Saviour of men; I summon My children, My true devotees, those who have given themselves to Me so that I might lead them to My divine Son, those whom I carry, so to speak, in My arms, those who have lived according to My spirit; finally, I summon the Apostles of the Latter Times, the faithful disciples of Jesus Christ who have lived in scorn of the world and of themselves, in poverty and in humility, in contempt and in silence, in prayer and in mortification, in chastity and in union with God, in suffering and unknown to the world. It is time for them to arise and come forth to enlighten the earth..."
Pray for the Holy Father.
Pray for the Priests that are being tempted, least they fall.
Yes, but Terry, I wouldn't blame his psychological problems on his traditional leanings, or claim that it was symptomatic of his other ills. Most young priests/seminarians lean very traditional these days. He clearly had some serious issues--packing a gun under his cassock?
Regarding your second comment, are these priests who are actively gay or just coping with the attraction? Strange times we live in.
The only fault I find with his reasoning is placing a time limit on this (fifty years and counting). What did Arbp. Fulton Sheen say about if you want your kids to leave the Faith, send them to a Catholic school? We've always had problems of the sort he speaks of. For another example of timid bishops, look to England under Henry VIII. Only one bishop spoke out against him, St. John Fisher. All the others were of the "go along to get along" crowd.
Other than that, Voris is right on the money.
Nice blog you have here, found it via Redneck Reflections. God bless ya.
"Bruce" hasn't been used as a stereotypical gay name since 1972,
Mr. Vorris once said the he didn't think gays should be able to vote if they disagreed with Catholic teaching. I have a very low opinion of him, and he is the worst representative of Catholic citizenship imaginable.
As for gays within the priesthood, how stupid do you have to be not to realize that gays have always been over-represented in the priesthood? If you create a society in which it isn't acceptable to be single without a vocation, plenty of single people who have no choice will suddenly discover a vocation.
If you create sexually segregated schools, how much opposite sex molestation will happen? If you claim that the experience of the Catholic Church with the scandals proves that gays are uniquely untrustworthy around minors, then its time to seriously investigate Catholic incest.
I tend to agree with Voris on this one (and anyone who knows me knows I am NOT a fan of his AT ALL.)
The "Bruce" part was a little over the top, though - a common problem with Voris which turns people off of him.
Whatever one's opinion on homosexuality, Voris is right about the bishops. They know, and they ignore. Why, I don't know? It truly creates a confusing situation for gay and straight Catholics alike. It is easy (but understandable) to deduce that the problem is likely that many of these bishops are, in fact, homosexuals themselves. What else can one think?
Pablito, Tridentine masses are about half gays and half SSPX members. I read Catullus, Martial, Ovid, Homer, Aristotle, and the Gospel of John all in their original language before I was 18. My Latin teacher was gay, as I found out in my late twenties, and one of his students became the first in the history of our country to win the Classics prize at Christ Church, Oxford.
I can understand your ignorance, but your lack of any concept of what makes other people tick makes me wonder if you might have a spectrum disorder (I don't say that to be cruel; I say that to discount the all too frequent inappropriateness of what you have to say.)
P.S. I agree with Mercury - not all "pastoral" counsel given by priests is code for cowardice and dissent. I know this first hand and with very, very good reason.
Lose my comment and tell me off, too, Terry! I'm in desperate spiritual need of it. Seriously.
What I'm adding now:
No need to do that. It's not your job to be my spiritual whatever on the Internet, and I shouldn't have put even one second of pressure on you to be. Lose this comment, anyway, though. I love you, Terry!
To be human is to seek as to see a reflection of divine love in our mortal lives. We can only understand and believe in divine love if we are capable of imitating it ourselves.
For those who are raised Catholic and are attracted exclusively to members of the same sex, the desire to love with a pure heart is overwhelming. Follow that desire.
Do not hide from love. Love more. Love chastely and selflessly and without reserve. Make no apology for it. Never regret it. Never be ashamed of it.
Sometimes "pastoral " is misused in another way: The priest who merely preaches what people want to hear, the priest who is "nice" all the time and never challenges his flock -- that priest is often called "pastoral." Total misuse of the word. "Pastoral" comes from the Latin "pastor" or "shepherd." A priest is pastoral when he serves as a shepherd: feeding his flock with GOOD food, leading them to where they're SUPPOSED TO BE, PROTECTING them from those who would take advantage of them, tending to their WOUNDS instead of telling them they have no wounds and so much more. I am continually amazed at priests who refuse to catechize their people or to address certain issues because "it wouldn't be pastoral." If you want to lay house, then go play house. But if you want to be a priest (and I'm not even going near the question of whether you're CALLED to be a priest -- not because it wouldn't be pastoral but because it would take up too much space and time right now) then for the love of Christ stop playing house or interior director or cruise director or whatever and BE A PASTOR!
My point is, if they are actively gay, that is a problem, if they aren't, then I don't understand why you bring it up other than to wound Pablo by attempting to connect the traditional Mass with practicing gay priests.
The article you posted is seriously flawed. It seeks to say that there was something wrong with this young priest's love for the traditional practices of the Church and her moral teaching. That somehow this is symptomatic of a very sick mind. This priest happened to be very sick, but most young seminarians/priests trend traditional these days and very few are sick and certainly not on the scale that this young man was.
Additionally, if you have problems with people asking, don't put it out there in the first place.
“…Pablito, Tridentine masses are about half gays and half SSPX members. I read Catullus, Martial, Ovid, Homer, Aristotle, and the Gospel of John all in their original language before I was 18... “
To be Truly ignorant, Man requires an Education. (Plato)
I have never stated there are no sinners at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.
The only place at Mass where sinners are to be accommodated is in the Confessional.
We have seen a proliferation of sinful behavior (Homosexuality) paraded about us in Church with the claim it is a ‘lifestyle’ an expression of ‘love’ and so on.
Simply put, this is not true.
The Demon of Homosexuality assigned by Satan to ruin souls is a very powerful one.
This Demon has no love even for himself, or his master, Satan.
Pacifists within the Church have allowed this gorilla to run amok, taking with it untold numbers of souls, including, as the facts now demonstrate, Cardinals, Bishops, Priests and Nuns.
Having grown tired of these Pacifists, Roman Catholics are now telling those in the homosexual community to keep quiet, and, “We refuse to participate in your sin.”
Further, they are being ousted from positions of authority within the Church, and can no longer hold Gay Masses, and use Church buildings for the promotion of homosexuality.
Homosexuality is not a sin. Acting out homosexual behavior is.
We must be very careful in our treatment of those afflicted by habitual sin; habitual grace is what we pray for them.
"When we dismiss people out of hand because of their apparent woundedness, we stunt their lives by ignoring their gifts, which are often buried in their wounds. We are all bruised reeds, whether our bruises are visible or not. The compassionate life is the life in which we believe that strength is hidden in weakness and that true community is a fellowship of the weak. "
The sinner is always welcomed into the Church, but never his sin.
It is a lie to say homosexuality pleases God.
It is blasphemy to say so.
Concerning any condition I might have, it is known as stupidity; it is an inherited trait.
On Voris - his is authentic prophetic speech, sharply contrasted with the concept of "prophetic witness" that has been co-opted as code for promoting a host of false teaching.
The central difficulty re: Voris is that he's talking about very difficult stuff - which explains how, as Fr. Joe points out - many shepherds often retreat to happy talk.
Please comment with charity and avoid ad hominem attacks. I exercise the right to delete comments I find inappropriate. If you use your real name there is a better chance your comment will stay put.
Ha, "Fr. Might-Be-Gay"...
ReplyDeleteWell, who can deny what he's saying here is true?
I just get nervous with the calling out of the Bishops, but then again, I wonder the same things he does sometimes.
How ARE laypeople supposed to react to bishops neglecting their roles? More importantly, how are they supposed to do it without falling into the trap of presuming and assuming too much?
Also, I do not think I need to point it out, but "pastoral", though it often is, is not ALWAYS a code-word for "cowardice" and "agreement".
The remedy for all these ills?
ReplyDeleteLatin Tridentine Mass.
lead by a Traditional Roman Catholic Priest.
How many LGBT groups in a Tridentine Parish?
ZERO.
*
I'll never get those 8 minutes back.
ReplyDeleteGood grief what an ass he is.
ReplyDeleteOne more- "Don't pay the bishops- pay me."
ReplyDeletepuke
Bold statements. Curious how he is in the know about the "Bruce" reference. Curious.
ReplyDeleteThom, SFO
ReplyDeleteImportant note for this post: My tone of voice, if I were actually speaking, is a calm tone, sitting across from a friend at a cozy coffee house, trying to understand their point of view. Picture a rainy Fall evening, steamed windows from coffee brewing and the Indigo Girls softly lulling in the background. My point, this is not a screaming, who do you think you are, post.
So Thom, this is what I don't get about you, are you saying that you think undermining Church teaching on matters of sexuality is a good thing? That Gay, in essence, "Is Good?" That "embracing one's sexual orientation is a path to holiness?" That that is 'being real' before God? That to do otherwise is to harm oneself psychologically and spiritually?
And assuming that that is what you believe, do you just believe that one should be honest about this before God and himself and his confessor or that he should be "out," "Loud and Proud?" And if yes, how do you reconcile the gay subculture and Queer Theory with Church teaching?
Not judging, just trying to understand where you're coming from.
Also meant to ask, do you believe those who are attracted to the same sex are called to chastity in the same way single, heterosexual people are?
ReplyDeletePablo - read this: http://www.citypages.com/2005-10-05/news/the-sins-of-the-father/
ReplyDeleteI knew the priest who murdered his accusers - he loved the traditional Latin Mass and all of the accoutremonts and did his best to implement it. No one is exempt. I actually know gay traditionl priests. Reality bites.
Mr. Nelson,
ReplyDeleteMy statement was ZERO LGBT groups at Traditional Chapels.
Everyone is inclined to sin.
However, even with this inclination, some have drawn the battle lines and refused to surrender to the forces of Hell.
Our Lady mentions them in her message at La Salette:
Rome will lose the faith and will become the seat of Antichrist.
… I summon the true disciples of God who lives and reigns in heaven; I summon the true imitators of Christ made man, the one true Saviour of men; I summon My children, My true devotees, those who have given themselves to Me so that I might lead them to My divine Son, those whom I carry, so to speak, in My arms, those who have lived according to My spirit; finally, I summon the Apostles of the Latter Times, the faithful disciples of Jesus Christ who have lived in scorn of the world and of themselves, in poverty and in humility, in contempt and in silence, in prayer and in mortification, in chastity and in union with God, in suffering and unknown to the world. It is time for them to arise and come forth to enlighten the earth..."
Pray for the Holy Father.
Pray for the Priests that are being tempted, least they fall.
Ave Maria, Purissima!
*
Yes, but Terry, I wouldn't blame his psychological problems on his traditional leanings, or claim that it was symptomatic of his other ills. Most young priests/seminarians lean very traditional these days. He clearly had some serious issues--packing a gun under his cassock?
ReplyDeleteRegarding your second comment, are these priests who are actively gay or just coping with the attraction? Strange times we live in.
Oops! I lost your last comments Clark and Pablo. But here's my response:
ReplyDeleteClark - none of your business.
Pablo - give it a rest.
God bless you!
The only fault I find with his reasoning is placing a time limit on this (fifty years and counting). What did Arbp. Fulton Sheen say about if you want your kids to leave the Faith, send them to a Catholic school? We've always had problems of the sort he speaks of. For another example of timid bishops, look to England under Henry VIII. Only one bishop spoke out against him, St. John Fisher. All the others were of the "go along to get along" crowd.
ReplyDeleteOther than that, Voris is right on the money.
Nice blog you have here, found it via Redneck Reflections. God bless ya.
"Bruce" hasn't been used as a stereotypical gay name since 1972,
ReplyDeleteMr. Vorris once said the he didn't think gays should be able to vote if they disagreed with Catholic teaching. I have a very low opinion of him, and he is the worst representative of Catholic citizenship imaginable.
As for gays within the priesthood, how stupid do you have to be not to realize that gays have always been over-represented in the priesthood? If you create a society in which it isn't acceptable to be single without a vocation, plenty of single people who have no choice will suddenly discover a vocation.
If you create sexually segregated schools, how much opposite sex molestation will happen? If you claim that the experience of the Catholic Church with the scandals proves that gays are uniquely untrustworthy around minors, then its time to seriously investigate Catholic incest.
Hmmmm.....
ReplyDeleteI tend to agree with Voris on this one (and anyone who knows me knows I am NOT a fan of his AT ALL.)
The "Bruce" part was a little over the top, though - a common problem with Voris which turns people off of him.
Whatever one's opinion on homosexuality, Voris is right about the bishops. They know, and they ignore. Why, I don't know? It truly creates a confusing situation for gay and straight Catholics alike. It is easy (but understandable) to deduce that the problem is likely that many of these bishops are, in fact, homosexuals themselves. What else can one think?
Pablito,
ReplyDeleteTridentine masses are about half gays and half SSPX members. I read Catullus, Martial, Ovid, Homer, Aristotle, and the Gospel of John all in their original language before I was 18. My Latin teacher was gay, as I found out in my late twenties, and one of his students became the first in the history of our country to win the Classics prize at Christ Church, Oxford.
I can understand your ignorance, but your lack of any concept of what makes other people tick makes me wonder if you might have a spectrum disorder (I don't say that to be cruel; I say that to discount the all too frequent inappropriateness of what you have to say.)
P.S.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Mercury - not all "pastoral" counsel given by priests is code for cowardice and dissent. I know this first hand and with very, very good reason.
+JMJ+
ReplyDeleteWhat I thought to write:
This moderation thing is excellent!
Lose my comment and tell me off, too, Terry! I'm in desperate spiritual need of it. Seriously.
What I'm adding now:
No need to do that. It's not your job to be my spiritual whatever on the Internet, and I shouldn't have put even one second of pressure on you to be. Lose this comment, anyway, though. I love you, Terry!
To be human is to seek as to see a reflection of divine love in our mortal lives. We can only understand and believe in divine love if we are capable of imitating it ourselves.
ReplyDeleteFor those who are raised Catholic and are attracted exclusively to members of the same sex, the desire to love with a pure heart is overwhelming. Follow that desire.
Do not hide from love. Love more. Love chastely and selflessly and without reserve. Make no apology for it. Never regret it. Never be ashamed of it.
Sometimes "pastoral " is misused in another way: The priest who merely preaches what people want to hear, the priest who is "nice" all the time and never challenges his flock -- that priest is often called "pastoral." Total misuse of the word. "Pastoral" comes from the Latin "pastor" or "shepherd." A priest is pastoral when he serves as a shepherd: feeding his flock with GOOD food, leading them to where they're SUPPOSED TO BE, PROTECTING them from those who would take advantage of them, tending to their WOUNDS instead of telling them they have no wounds and so much more. I am continually amazed at priests who refuse to catechize their people or to address certain issues because "it wouldn't be pastoral." If you want to lay house, then go play house. But if you want to be a priest (and I'm not even going near the question of whether you're CALLED to be a priest -- not because it wouldn't be pastoral but because it would take up too much space and time right now) then for the love of Christ stop playing house or interior director or cruise director or whatever and BE A PASTOR!
ReplyDelete"Clark - none of your business."
ReplyDeleteMy point is, if they are actively gay, that is a problem, if they aren't, then I don't understand why you bring it up other than to wound Pablo by attempting to connect the traditional Mass with practicing gay priests.
The article you posted is seriously flawed. It seeks to say that there was something wrong with this young priest's love for the traditional practices of the Church and her moral teaching. That somehow this is symptomatic of a very sick mind. This priest happened to be very sick, but most young seminarians/priests trend traditional these days and very few are sick and certainly not on the scale that this young man was.
Additionally, if you have problems with people asking, don't put it out there in the first place.
Oh, I get it, I made a valid point and that got to you. Chagrin.
ReplyDelete“…Pablito,
ReplyDeleteTridentine masses are about half gays and half SSPX members. I read Catullus, Martial, Ovid, Homer, Aristotle, and the Gospel of John all in their original language before I was 18... “
To be Truly ignorant, Man requires an Education. (Plato)
I have never stated there are no sinners at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.
The only place at Mass where sinners are to be accommodated is in the Confessional.
We have seen a proliferation of sinful behavior (Homosexuality) paraded about us in Church with the claim it is a ‘lifestyle’ an expression of ‘love’ and so on.
Simply put, this is not true.
The Demon of Homosexuality assigned by Satan to ruin souls is a very powerful one.
This Demon has no love even for himself, or his master, Satan.
Pacifists within the Church have allowed this gorilla to run amok, taking with it untold numbers of souls, including, as the facts now demonstrate, Cardinals, Bishops, Priests and Nuns.
Having grown tired of these Pacifists, Roman Catholics are now telling those in the homosexual community to keep quiet, and, “We refuse to participate in your sin.”
Further, they are being ousted from positions of authority within the Church, and can no longer hold Gay Masses, and use Church buildings for the promotion of homosexuality.
Homosexuality is not a sin. Acting out homosexual behavior is.
We must be very careful in our treatment of those afflicted by habitual sin; habitual grace is what we pray for them.
"When we dismiss people out of hand because of their apparent woundedness, we stunt their lives by ignoring their gifts, which are often buried in their wounds. We are all bruised reeds, whether our bruises are visible or not. The compassionate life is the life in which we believe that strength is hidden in weakness and that true community is a fellowship of the weak. "
The sinner is always welcomed into the Church, but never his sin.
It is a lie to say homosexuality pleases God.
It is blasphemy to say so.
Concerning any condition I might have, it is known as stupidity; it is an inherited trait.
Comes from being a nobody.
*
Enbrethiliel - I wouldn't dream of giving you spiritual advice. :)
ReplyDeleteThere are a lot of homosexual apologists running rampant around here.
ReplyDeleteBravo Fr. Joe!
ReplyDeleteOn Voris - his is authentic prophetic speech, sharply contrasted with the concept of "prophetic witness" that has been co-opted as code for promoting a host of false teaching.
The central difficulty re: Voris is that he's talking about very difficult stuff - which explains how, as Fr. Joe points out - many shepherds often retreat to happy talk.
Thanks, Chris! Let's pray for each other!
ReplyDelete