This is very good - Voris demonstrates he respects the office of bishop while expressing "the cry of the faithful", as Fr. John Harvey would put it. I totally support what Voris says here - and how he says it.
Michael's testimony, if I were asked to give it.........
Please pray for our Bishops, whom I will continue to expose daily.
My past was bad. My experience strength and hope, freely given, might give help to a soul. But my ambition won't let me be. I quickly reinterperate a fallen sinners career as ambition, don't all us converts do the same? I know the Bishop's we seek to help be more authentic, tell us to go and pray silently for souls, but hey! We're born to talk! To travel, be known! We feel like we're being asked to lay down and die when asked to keep quiet. My conversion is my key to my living! Why d'ya think at the end of EVERY broadcast, I PLEAD for premium subscribers? Fr Corapi? I never mention him now, it would'nt PAY to do so.
I was onced asked Voris what his thoughts were on the laity practicing obedience and respecting the established hierarchy of the Church... I was met with a blank stare.
True story.
And that is all I will every say on the subject Voris.
Kat - That is the area where he and his more fervent followers fall short. I wrote to JPII once about an issue and one of the priest assistants wrote bavk in his name saying that His Holiness expects us to be obedient to local bishops - or something like that. So that is pretty much what I have always tried to do. Gratefully, we have an excellent Archbishop.
More congratulations on your move BTW - I wish you great success!
Here's one for ya. Just like we don't know that every gay person or gay couple that we see aren't trying to live a chaste life in accordance with the Church's teaching on homosexuality, doesn't it stand to reason that every bishop also might not be aware of each lecture, speaker, sermon, or group that is held at a parish or university in a diocese? Let alone those that are purportedly endorsing a view opposed to that of the Church? Doesn't seem like Michael Voris S.T.B. thinks so.
I'd venture to say that it would be hard for a bishop, even with a large support staff, to monitor every event, every sermon, every lecture that takes place in a diocese, and get a critical and unbiased report of the procedings. And then to act if necessary.
Wow, Shadowlands--that's quite a heap of judgment you've flung at Voris, whose only desire is to save souls. He gave up a very lucrative career in news broadcasting to do what he does now, where he makes almost no money.
And that's his real hair.
Kat--I can't imagine why he would have met your answer with a blank stare, as he's made it clear in his talks that respect and obedience are necessary for the laity. But there is nothing disobedient about calling out, e.g., Abp. Weakland for teaching heresy, or Bp. Gumbleton for allowing a homosexual subculture to flourish in his diocese. In fact, I can't imagine any layman keeping silent in the face of such travesties and thinking he's doing a service to the Church, while souls are merrily being dragged off to hell.
"We've had enough of exhortations to be silent! Cry out with a hundred thousand tongues. I see that the world is rotten because of silence." --St. Catherine of Siena
Christine - you are right, I guess, but then again, I have often seen laypeople calling out their bishops, or more commonly their priests, for "teaching heresy" when in fact, it was the layperson who was mistaken. The Internet is full of people who have made it their business to accuse the Pope of teaching heresy (Benedict XIV, John Paul II, John Paul I, and Paul VI - and there's no shortage of those who even charge Pius XII with this, and even Pius X!).
I guess my only point is that heresy is a heavy charge, and one must be careful how one wields it, especially when one is a layperson.
Mercury: I agree--there are too many uninformed, over-opinionated laypeople sounding off on things of which they know nothing. Voris, however, is not one of them. He would never call out clergy by name unless such clergy were leading the faithful into clear heresy--which the two above undoubtedly have done (e.g., Weakland, who had a male lover, has written an autobiography blaming the Church for Her stance on homosexuality). The only other priest he's mentioned by name that I know of is Fr. Richard McBrien at Notre Dame--and we all know about him. As to the others, even if he doesn't call them by name, Voris is well aware of what's going on in many dioceses, things that would shock the conscience of most laity; he personally receives hundreds (hundreds) of e-mails from laity and *priests* who tell him about this or that travesty in their diocese, with no help whatsoever from their bishop, who is well aware of what's going on, but either looks the other way or actually *punishes* the cleric for being too orthodox. Just look, e.g., at the recent stories about Fr. Michael Rodriguez in El Paso, or Fr. Gionet in Canada, both punished by their own bishops for speaking out clearly against homosexual acts. That's just a drop in the bucket.
There's a crisis in the Church because too many bishops haven't done what they need to do--and we laity (who too often suffer from what Bp. Bruskewitz calls a neo-clericalism) erroneously think obedience means to shut up and say nothing.
"Who is going to save our Church? Not our bishops, not our priests and religious. It is up to you, the people. You have the minds, the eyes, the ears to save the Church. Your mission is to see that your priests act like priests, your bishops, like bishops, and your religious act like religious."--Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen, 1972
"even if he doesn't call them by name, Voris is well aware of what's going on in many dioceses,"
But it's his living to be aware, isn't it? He'd be doing a bad job otherwise. I don't sense he's like Fr Pavone and can't sleep due to fear of souls being harmed. If anything damned souls bring in DOLLARS. When was the last (or first) time, you ever heard Michael celebrate something about catholocism?
We must hope that, we can't declare it yet Christine. The fact that you do, you as a trained legal person, shows me, a not very trained in anything person, that you have a blind spot, regarding this man. I'll stick with crescat's observations, they are real, to this blogger's mind (and I used to fight with Kat, I love her now and pray for her, she's got a big job to do, one day, for the church). By the way Christine, I always enjoy commenting back and forth with you, you do think about things. I am sure Terry would want to welcome you here as well. It's a good place for sorting issues out, gets a bit hectic sometimes, hence the moderation on comments, but Christmas is coming up, I bet Terry will be lenient by then!
I wasn't accusing Michael Voris of being ignorant, and I do know that he doesn't name many people by name. But you seem to have understood well what I Was trying to say.
I think the deal is that not everyone likes Voris's approach, and his approach will be harmful to some souls and helpful to others. But I think that is true of anyone in tat line of work, lay or religious (except perhaps Fulton Sheen ...).
As for myself, he seems like a nice enough guy, and he knows what he's doing, and I do like him, but sometimes he does make me wince in the WAY he says something, and not in a "truth hurts" kind of way, but in a "he could have made the same point, to better effect" kind of way.
Mercury--If the only thing you're watching is the Vortex, then I can see why people might think Voris is a grouch. But the Vortex represents only about 15% of his work; you really ought to check out his talks in Madrid, or his London talk, which show a man deeply in love with the faith and on fire to save souls:
Shadowlands--I will take Voris's word when he himself has said--repeatedly--that the one thing he cares about is saving souls; that is why he gave up a profitable job in TV and poured $700,000 of his retirement fund into starting up his apostolate. Three times he's been on the brink of bankruptcy, and each time, God sent some anonymous donor at the last minute who saved the ship. If you know his conversion story, you'll understand: he lost his only brother suddenly to a heart attack 8 years ago, and 10 months later, he lost his mother to cancer. She actually offered herself up as a victim soul for her sons' salvation--and standing by her casket, he told her that her sacrifice would not be in vain, and that he was a changed man. That's when he went and got a theology degree, and after much prayer, started St. Michael's Media. So he is entirely sincere when he says the one thing he cares about is saving souls.
It would be near-high impossible for the Bishop of Salt Lake City (diocese--all of Utah) to be aware of all that is going on in this big state as far as speakers, clubs, classes..
And in Public Schools and Universities there is this nagging little issue called Freedom of Speech and of Peaceful Assembly...
Christine, we must continue to hope that Michael is all that he says he is and we do need voices crying in the wilderness. As an older woman, familiar with sin (God forgive me) we need to pray the rosary. As you become a Catholic old lady, you begin to see this. So much talking. Sorrowful mysteries. Thank God for them, also old ladies. I'm still upset about Father Corapi, it's making it difficult for me to trust. Literally. Nobody's talking about that though.Why?
Please comment with charity and avoid ad hominem attacks. I exercise the right to delete comments I find inappropriate. If you use your real name there is a better chance your comment will stay put.
Excellent!
ReplyDeleteso you two are like best buds now?
ReplyDeleteLOL! I've always liked him - I've disagreed with his approach or tone at times.
ReplyDeleteFr. Corapi is the one I never really liked that much - but now that he's on his own, I can dig it.
Is that bad?
Michael's testimony, if I were asked to give it.........
ReplyDeletePlease pray for our Bishops, whom I will continue to expose daily.
My past was bad. My experience strength and hope, freely given, might give help to a soul. But my ambition won't let me be. I quickly reinterperate a fallen sinners career as ambition, don't all us converts do the same? I know the Bishop's we seek to help be more authentic, tell us to go and pray silently for souls, but hey! We're born to talk! To travel, be known! We feel like we're being asked to lay down and die when asked to keep quiet. My conversion is my key to my living! Why d'ya think at the end of EVERY broadcast, I PLEAD for premium subscribers? Fr Corapi? I never mention him now, it would'nt PAY to do so.
He respects the office of bishop.. as long as the bishop says what Voris thinks is right.
ReplyDeleteThat's not how it works. You know that, Terry.
I was onced asked Voris what his thoughts were on the laity practicing obedience and respecting the established hierarchy of the Church... I was met with a blank stare.
ReplyDeleteTrue story.
And that is all I will every say on the subject Voris.
Kat - That is the area where he and his more fervent followers fall short. I wrote to JPII once about an issue and one of the priest assistants wrote bavk in his name saying that His Holiness expects us to be obedient to local bishops - or something like that. So that is pretty much what I have always tried to do. Gratefully, we have an excellent Archbishop.
ReplyDeleteMore congratulations on your move BTW - I wish you great success!
Here's one for ya. Just like we don't know that every gay person or gay couple that we see aren't trying to live a chaste life in accordance with the Church's teaching on homosexuality, doesn't it stand to reason that every bishop also might not be aware of each lecture, speaker, sermon, or group that is held at a parish or university in a diocese? Let alone those that are purportedly endorsing a view opposed to that of the Church? Doesn't seem like Michael Voris S.T.B. thinks so.
ReplyDeleteI'd venture to say that it would be hard for a bishop, even with a large support staff, to monitor every event, every sermon, every lecture that takes place in a diocese, and get a critical and unbiased report of the procedings. And then to act if necessary.
For the record, I'd have a lot more respect for Michael if he had the courage to come out about his toupée, and live a proud and authentic life as a follically challenged man.
Ace B.A.
Ace - I like to think that is his real hair.
ReplyDeleteWow, Shadowlands--that's quite a heap of judgment you've flung at Voris, whose only desire is to save souls. He gave up a very lucrative career in news broadcasting to do what he does now, where he makes almost no money.
ReplyDeleteAnd that's his real hair.
Kat--I can't imagine why he would have met your answer with a blank stare, as he's made it clear in his talks that respect and obedience are necessary for the laity. But there is nothing disobedient about calling out, e.g., Abp. Weakland for teaching heresy, or Bp. Gumbleton for allowing a homosexual subculture to flourish in his diocese. In fact, I can't imagine any layman keeping silent in the face of such travesties and thinking he's doing a service to the Church, while souls are merrily being dragged off to hell.
"We've had enough of exhortations to be silent! Cry out with a hundred thousand tongues. I see that the world is rotten because of silence." --St. Catherine of Siena
Christine - you are right, I guess, but then again, I have often seen laypeople calling out their bishops, or more commonly their priests, for "teaching heresy" when in fact, it was the layperson who was mistaken. The Internet is full of people who have made it their business to accuse the Pope of teaching heresy (Benedict XIV, John Paul II, John Paul I, and Paul VI - and there's no shortage of those who even charge Pius XII with this, and even Pius X!).
ReplyDeleteI guess my only point is that heresy is a heavy charge, and one must be careful how one wields it, especially when one is a layperson.
Mercury: I agree--there are too many uninformed, over-opinionated laypeople sounding off on things of which they know nothing. Voris, however, is not one of them. He would never call out clergy by name unless such clergy were leading the faithful into clear heresy--which the two above undoubtedly have done (e.g., Weakland, who had a male lover, has written an autobiography blaming the Church for Her stance on homosexuality). The only other priest he's mentioned by name that I know of is Fr. Richard McBrien at Notre Dame--and we all know about him. As to the others, even if he doesn't call them by name, Voris is well aware of what's going on in many dioceses, things that would shock the conscience of most laity; he personally receives hundreds (hundreds) of e-mails from laity and *priests* who tell him about this or that travesty in their diocese, with no help whatsoever from their bishop, who is well aware of what's going on, but either looks the other way or actually *punishes* the cleric for being too orthodox. Just look, e.g., at the recent stories about Fr. Michael Rodriguez in El Paso, or Fr. Gionet in Canada, both punished by their own bishops for speaking out clearly against homosexual acts. That's just a drop in the bucket.
ReplyDeleteThere's a crisis in the Church because too many bishops haven't done what they need to do--and we laity (who too often suffer from what Bp. Bruskewitz calls a neo-clericalism) erroneously think obedience means to shut up and say nothing.
"Who is going to save our Church? Not our bishops, not our priests and religious. It is up to you, the people. You have the minds, the eyes, the ears to save the Church. Your mission is to see that your priests act like priests, your bishops, like bishops, and your religious act like religious."--Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen, 1972
"even if he doesn't call them by name, Voris is well aware of what's going on in many dioceses,"
ReplyDeleteBut it's his living to be aware, isn't it? He'd be doing a bad job otherwise. I don't sense he's like Fr Pavone and can't sleep due to fear of souls being harmed. If anything damned souls bring in DOLLARS. When was the last (or first) time, you ever heard Michael celebrate something about catholocism?
Christine said:
ReplyDeleteregarding Michael
"whose only desire is to save souls."
We must hope that, we can't declare it yet Christine. The fact that you do, you as a trained legal person, shows me, a not very trained in anything person, that you have a blind spot, regarding this man. I'll stick with crescat's observations, they are real, to this blogger's mind (and I used to fight with Kat, I love her now and pray for her, she's got a big job to do, one day, for the church). By the way Christine, I always enjoy commenting back and forth with you, you do think about things. I am sure Terry would want to welcome you here as well. It's a good place for sorting issues out, gets a bit hectic sometimes, hence the moderation on comments, but Christmas is coming up, I bet Terry will be lenient by then!
Christine -
ReplyDeleteI wasn't accusing Michael Voris of being ignorant, and I do know that he doesn't name many people by name. But you seem to have understood well what I Was trying to say.
I think the deal is that not everyone likes Voris's approach, and his approach will be harmful to some souls and helpful to others. But I think that is true of anyone in tat line of work, lay or religious (except perhaps Fulton Sheen ...).
As for myself, he seems like a nice enough guy, and he knows what he's doing, and I do like him, but sometimes he does make me wince in the WAY he says something, and not in a "truth hurts" kind of way, but in a "he could have made the same point, to better effect" kind of way.
Mercury--If the only thing you're watching is the Vortex, then I can see why people might think Voris is a grouch. But the Vortex represents only about 15% of his work; you really ought to check out his talks in Madrid, or his London talk, which show a man deeply in love with the faith and on fire to save souls:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/user/RealCatholicTV#p/search/1/a05Mxbdxs84
http://www.youtube.com/user/RealCatholicTV#p/search/0/9EImCEoIA7Y
Shadowlands--I will take Voris's word when he himself has said--repeatedly--that the one thing he cares about is saving souls; that is why he gave up a profitable job in TV and poured $700,000 of his retirement fund into starting up his apostolate. Three times he's been on the brink of bankruptcy, and each time, God sent some anonymous donor at the last minute who saved the ship. If you know his conversion story, you'll understand: he lost his only brother suddenly to a heart attack 8 years ago, and 10 months later, he lost his mother to cancer. She actually offered herself up as a victim soul for her sons' salvation--and standing by her casket, he told her that her sacrifice would not be in vain, and that he was a changed man. That's when he went and got a theology degree, and after much prayer, started St. Michael's Media. So he is entirely sincere when he says the one thing he cares about is saving souls.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteIt would be near-high impossible for the Bishop of Salt Lake City (diocese--all of Utah) to be aware of all that is going on in this big state as far as speakers, clubs, classes..
ReplyDeleteAnd in Public Schools and Universities there is this nagging little issue called Freedom of Speech and of Peaceful Assembly...
Sara
Shadow, we fought? Who won? ;-)
ReplyDeleteKat,you're cool kid. I'm watching you and your son's backs, with rosarys. Like I say, you have a special task.
ReplyDeleteChristine, we must continue to hope that Michael is all that he says he is and we do need voices crying in the wilderness. As an older woman, familiar with sin (God forgive me) we need to pray the rosary. As you become a Catholic old lady, you begin to see this. So much talking. Sorrowful mysteries. Thank God for them, also old ladies. I'm still upset about Father Corapi, it's making it difficult for me to trust. Literally. Nobody's talking about that though.Why?
ReplyDelete