I think this article, along with Mark Shea's (haven't read the other guy's) expresses, what a lot of people are thinking. If this is something, as Adrienne says, we need to be ashamed of (sin), I will need a sermon from someone I trust, as to why. Maybe include the 'how' of it too.
Here's the problem with Elizabeth's thesis: Pfleger is an apostate whose opinions have (and will continue to) mislead anyone they let him teach. She doesn't oppose giving him an appointment to a school where children will be poisoned, she opposes the people who want his opinions silenced. She is the one who is promoting democracy.
If it's two things I have a low tolerance for, it's stupidity and intellectual dishonesty.
I'm amazed at how many seem to be so contemptuous of Michael Voris - Catholic dissidents have been far more mean-spirited, uncharitable, not to mention unfaithful - for decades.
I viewed the video by M. Voris about Earth Day/Easter. I can't see how this makes him like Fr. Pfleger. At all. I agree with Adrienne, Carol and you, Mr. Terry.
Terry said 'I'm amazed at how many seem to be so contemptuous of Michael Voris -'
I don't feel that way about him. I just think, if I was his mother and I had friends coming over, who were in two minds about reverting, for example,I would be begging him to tone down any criticisms of them or indeed the bishops, because it kills the message for a lot of people, especially non-catholics.
i read the anchoress' post and understand where she's coming from. at the same time, i don't necessarily believe voris is a rightwing nutjob. nor do i believe that she is being intellectually dishonest or stupid (wow). scalia gives a balanced evaluation, i think.
Adrienne, Carol, Terry and Padre--I agree with you all. I have had one thought about Voris: if the Bishops and priests had themselves remained loyal to the Magisterium ovwer the last forty years , would Michale Voris be necessary? Charity dictates that I remain silent on the subjectg of Elizabeth Scalia. PADRE--Soooooo glad you are back!!!! I have really missed you. Hope all is well in monkdom...
She has it about right. There are those on the right pulling, and those on the left doing the same. For certain, the Church is a big tent, but the extremes are generally avoided. The hierarchy tend to be pragmatic, more than dogmatic. I always think that some people on the extreme margins - leftys & holier-than-the-Pope types - even realize this, and don't even believe everything they post. They think that if they just keep pulling harder, the Church will respond, and move closer to their own vision/version of Catholicism.....brick by brick if you will.
I agree with the article. People like you calling people like me "dissidents" all the time -- is the problem with the church today. In all the many times I've commented on this blog, even though I'm not sure why I do, I have never called anyone names or anything. I think it would be good if as Catholics, we could all just agree that we have different views of the Church and just move on, so we can be respectful to one another. The Catholic Church has enemies on all sides fighting against it relentlessly and looking for ways to tear it down and here we all endlessly fight amongst ourselves. I like to see your viewpoint, I understand you think it is truth and that I'm just a "dissident" but I think that a little more respect could go a long way. I've only experienced rudeness and attacks from the local Catholic blogosphere. I pray you'll all learn to be a bit kinder. I think that's what the original article was getting at: Michael Voris highly contributes to the discord in the church. Father Pfleger is a polarizing figure in a different way, so I think the comparison might be a little off but I agree whole-heartedly at what she was getting at.
Nazareth Priest - hey, good to see you leave a comment! Just the other day I was wondering how you were doing. I hope and pray that God is being good to you.
Yes - Christ and the devil are both 'polarizing'-- in different ways.
To put Christ and truth in the same category as lies and liars and then pat yourself on the back for the 'charity' or claim it is servitude to God, is about as Uncle Screwtape as it gets.
Anonymous, I'm sorry, I actually believed I was being charitable when I refer to people who dissent from Church teaching as dissidents. Other blogs usually use more perjorative terms.
While I respect Elizabeth Scalia's work, I strongly disagree with her on the point of equating Michael Voris with Fr. Flaeger. Fr. Flaeger has profaned The Holy Mass, and his ministry as a priest, polluting them with his politics. I am not aware of anything wrong that Mr. Voris has done.
To put Christ and truth in the same category as lies and liars and then pat yourself on the back for the 'charity' or claim it is servitude to God, is about as Uncle Screwtape as it gets.
And then claim victimhood...and then...close comments ....and then pray for mercy? Thanks, but no thanks.
Just like with the Wanderer, I find myself agreeing with most of what Michael Voris says, but I have to limit my intake of such negativity as it causes me to be too cynical and critical. With Voris and the Wanderer, everything is a crisis and a drama. But, then again, that's the way the news industry sells its wares.
Be that as it may, I don't see Voris as being the guy crucifying Our Lord on His right arm, as Ms. Scalia seems to be saying (btw, she uses her maiden name? How odd for a conservative.)
Gette - that is a perfect comparison - I'm like that about the Wanderer as well - but they are nothing but fun-times compared to the Remnant. Voris is a voice for what many people think - only he can't be ignored.
People like Voris are pointing out the ugly truth...for example...of how many diocese continue trying to smother the message of the National Review Board in the Report on the Crisis in the Church, which voiced what Terry is voicing @ Abbey Roads, that the Church's crisis was >80% homosexual predation. Prominent Catholics including Bob Bennet and Leon Panetta voiced what Voris has voiced, and authorities and operatives inside the Church, such as the former Archbishop of Washington DC, have made a campaign out of smothering the truth. My wife and I had to submit to the Washington Archdiocese "Child Protection" re-education program - it was a systematic campaign to stifle any acknowledgment of the central conclusion of the 2004 Report on the Crisis - that the problem was rooted in homosexual predators throughout the Church in the USA. Many of us parents who had read the 2004 Report pushed back on the programmed presenters running the "training," and told them they were ignoring the truth. Now the same operatives and authorities have hired 3rd-rate flunkies coming out of John Jay College in NYC to contradict the findings of the 2004 report, while they begin a campaign of trying to assasinate the character of Catholics like Voris. But as any plumber will tell you, some stuff just doesn't flush.
Chris: The training? Propoganda which sexualizes children. Virtus was lifted from Planned Parenthood. Thank you for this reminder. I will pray for your children and all children this Lent...
Can you describe the connection? While I am opposed to many forces inside The Church, I don't agree with characterizing these as the Church (i.e., The RCC is doing this). I think it is correct to say that these are the host of the force of evil that has invaded and is attacking the Church from inside - the host includes numerous lay and clerical members.
Chris: VIRTUS is endoresed by Planned Parenthod. An insurance co. basically designed VIRTUS to protect homosexual priests from financial liability. Here are a few articles.
Please comment with charity and avoid ad hominem attacks. I exercise the right to delete comments I find inappropriate. If you use your real name there is a better chance your comment will stay put.
I read Deacon Greg, Mark Shea, and Elizabeth's articles. They should all be ashamed.
ReplyDeleteI think this article, along with Mark Shea's (haven't read the other guy's) expresses, what a lot of people are thinking. If this is something, as Adrienne says, we need to be ashamed of (sin), I will need a sermon from someone I trust, as to why. Maybe include the 'how' of it too.
ReplyDeleteHere's the problem with Elizabeth's thesis: Pfleger is an apostate whose opinions have (and will continue to) mislead anyone they let him teach. She doesn't oppose giving him an appointment to a school where children will be poisoned, she opposes the people who want his opinions silenced. She is the one who is promoting democracy.
ReplyDeleteIf it's two things I have a low tolerance for, it's stupidity and intellectual dishonesty.
I'm amazed at how many seem to be so contemptuous of Michael Voris - Catholic dissidents have been far more mean-spirited, uncharitable, not to mention unfaithful - for decades.
ReplyDeleteI viewed the video by M. Voris about Earth Day/Easter. I can't see how this makes him like Fr. Pfleger.
ReplyDeleteAt all.
I agree with Adrienne, Carol and you, Mr. Terry.
Terry said
ReplyDelete'I'm amazed at how many seem to be so contemptuous of Michael Voris -'
I don't feel that way about him. I just think, if I was his mother and I had friends coming over, who were in two minds about reverting, for example,I would be begging him to tone down any criticisms of them or indeed the bishops, because it kills the message for a lot of people, especially non-catholics.
i read the anchoress' post and understand where she's coming from. at the same time, i don't necessarily believe voris is a rightwing nutjob. nor do i believe that she is being intellectually dishonest or stupid (wow). scalia gives a balanced evaluation, i think.
ReplyDeleteAdrienne, Carol, Terry and Padre--I agree with you all. I have had one thought about Voris: if the Bishops and priests had themselves remained loyal to the Magisterium ovwer the last forty years , would Michale Voris be necessary? Charity dictates that I remain silent on the subjectg of Elizabeth Scalia. PADRE--Soooooo glad you are back!!!! I have really missed you. Hope all is well in monkdom...
ReplyDeleteShe has it about right. There are those on the right pulling, and those on the left doing the same. For certain, the Church is a big tent, but the extremes are generally avoided. The hierarchy tend to be pragmatic, more than dogmatic. I always think that some people on the extreme margins - leftys & holier-than-the-Pope types - even realize this, and don't even believe everything they post. They think that if they just keep pulling harder, the Church will respond, and move closer to their own vision/version of Catholicism.....brick by brick if you will.
ReplyDeleteFather! Big hug - I miss you so much - I'm with you in prayer and everything else - thanks be to God!
ReplyDeleteI agree with the article. People like you calling people like me "dissidents" all the time -- is the problem with the church today. In all the many times I've commented on this blog, even though I'm not sure why I do, I have never called anyone names or anything. I think it would be good if as Catholics, we could all just agree that we have different views of the Church and just move on, so we can be respectful to one another. The Catholic Church has enemies on all sides fighting against it relentlessly and looking for ways to tear it down and here we all endlessly fight amongst ourselves. I like to see your viewpoint, I understand you think it is truth and that I'm just a "dissident" but I think that a little more respect could go a long way. I've only experienced rudeness and attacks from the local Catholic blogosphere. I pray you'll all learn to be a bit kinder. I think that's what the original article was getting at: Michael Voris highly contributes to the discord in the church. Father Pfleger is a polarizing figure in a different way, so I think the comparison might be a little off but I agree whole-heartedly at what she was getting at.
ReplyDeleteNazareth Priest - hey, good to see you leave a comment! Just the other day I was wondering how you were doing. I hope and pray that God is being good to you.
ReplyDeleteYes - Christ and the devil are both 'polarizing'-- in different ways.
ReplyDeleteTo put Christ and truth in the same category as lies and liars and then pat yourself on the back for the 'charity' or claim it is servitude to God, is about as Uncle Screwtape as it gets.
:O)
I join other in saying it is nice to see you Padre!
ReplyDeleteAnonymous, I'm sorry, I actually believed I was being charitable when I refer to people who dissent from Church teaching as dissidents. Other blogs usually use more perjorative terms.
ReplyDeleteWhile I respect Elizabeth Scalia's work, I strongly disagree with her on the point of equating Michael Voris with Fr. Flaeger. Fr. Flaeger has profaned The Holy Mass, and his ministry as a priest, polluting them with his politics. I am not aware of anything wrong that Mr. Voris has done.
ReplyDeleteTo put Christ and truth in the same category as lies and liars and then pat yourself on the back for the 'charity' or claim it is servitude to God, is about as Uncle Screwtape as it gets.
ReplyDeleteAnd then claim victimhood...and then...close comments ....and then pray for mercy? Thanks, but no thanks.
Just like with the Wanderer, I find myself agreeing with most of what Michael Voris says, but I have to limit my intake of such negativity as it causes me to be too cynical and critical. With Voris and the Wanderer, everything is a crisis and a drama. But, then again, that's the way the news industry sells its wares.
ReplyDeleteBe that as it may, I don't see Voris as being the guy crucifying Our Lord on His right arm, as Ms. Scalia seems to be saying (btw, she uses her maiden name? How odd for a conservative.)
Not so conservative, Georgette...
ReplyDeleteGette - that is a perfect comparison - I'm like that about the Wanderer as well - but they are nothing but fun-times compared to the Remnant. Voris is a voice for what many people think - only he can't be ignored.
ReplyDeletePeople like Voris are pointing out the ugly truth...for example...of how many diocese continue trying to smother the message of the National Review Board in the Report on the Crisis in the Church, which voiced what Terry is voicing @ Abbey Roads, that the Church's crisis was >80% homosexual predation. Prominent Catholics including Bob Bennet and Leon Panetta voiced what Voris has voiced, and authorities and operatives inside the Church, such as the former Archbishop of Washington DC, have made a campaign out of smothering the truth. My wife and I had to submit to the Washington Archdiocese "Child Protection" re-education program - it was a systematic campaign to stifle any acknowledgment of the central conclusion of the 2004 Report on the Crisis - that the problem was rooted in homosexual predators throughout the Church in the USA. Many of us parents who had read the 2004 Report pushed back on the programmed presenters running the "training," and told them they were ignoring the truth. Now the same operatives and authorities have hired 3rd-rate flunkies coming out of John Jay College in NYC to contradict the findings of the 2004 report, while they begin a campaign of trying to assasinate the character of Catholics like Voris. But as any plumber will tell you, some stuff just doesn't flush.
ReplyDeleteChris: The training? Propoganda which sexualizes children. Virtus was lifted from Planned Parenthood. Thank you for this reminder. I will pray for your children and all children this Lent...
ReplyDeleteWhoops. I will pray for you and yours, Chris, this Holy Week...
ReplyDeleteMaria:
ReplyDeleteDoes Virtus have a connection with PP? That would explain a lot...
Oh, man. BIG TIME. The RCC is sexualizing our children.
ReplyDeleteMaria:
ReplyDeleteCan you describe the connection? While I am opposed to many forces inside The Church, I don't agree with characterizing these as the Church (i.e., The RCC is doing this). I think it is correct to say that these are the host of the force of evil that has invaded and is attacking the Church from inside - the host includes numerous lay and clerical members.
Chris: VIRTUS is endoresed by Planned Parenthod. An insurance co. basically designed VIRTUS to protect homosexual priests from financial liability. Here are a few articles.
ReplyDeletewww.lifesitenews.com/news/archive/ldn/2006/mar/06030809
www.lesfemmes-thetruth.org/abusing_children.htm
I read a bunch of stuff about it a bout a year back and can't locate the stuff I read.
Teresa Kettlekamp who heads up Office of Youth and Children Protection is a pro-abort and was on the board of advisors to the Feminist Majority.