"Are we prepared to promote conditions in which the living contact with God can be reestablished? For our lives today have become godless to the point of complete vacuity. God is no longer with us in the conscious sense of the word. He is denied, ignored, excluded from every claim to have a part in our daily life." - Alfred Delp, S.J.

Friday, April 29, 2016

Voris covers 'not born that way'.

Isn't this a nice photo of Michael?


The truth needs to be repeated ...

Been there done that - but it does bear repeating, and Voris covers it well.  But he's kind of preaching to the choir.  So much has been written and discussed and there has been several 'developments' over just the past decade - since I began blogging.  That said - read Michael's transcript here.

The only people who will really be paying attention are the CMTV followers and fans.  That is what I mean by preaching to the choir.  That said, there are problems with the one size fits all - or one guy's experience fits all, which may be a better way to phrase that.  I get the feeling Michael will be repeating all the teachings, and that is fine - it's a great way to establish one's fidelity to Catholic doctrine and moral teaching, as well as a means to convey that one is faithful to a chaste, celibate lifestyle.  All that good stuff.  And I mean it - it is good stuff - and you gain credibility for it.

Nevertheless, many, if not most gay people have convinced themselves they were born that way - and some who know such people insist they exhibited 'gay' behaviors as toddlers.  Parents, uncles and aunts, will tell you that.  (And in turn, this early affirmation fixed the kid in that identity - in a loving, co-dependent way maybe?)  And who knows?  The Catechism certainly teaches the Church doesn't fully understand "its psychological genesis" explaining it "remains largely unexplained."  To be sure, the Church consistently affirms the authentic identity of the human person as a child of God - male and female he created them:

The human person, made in the image and likeness of God, can hardly be adequately described by a reductionist reference to his or her sexual orientation.

Today, the Church provides a badly needed context for the care of the human person when she refuses to consider the person as a "heterosexual" or a "homosexual" and insists that every person has a fundamental Identity: the creature of God, and by grace, his child and heir to eternal life. - CDF
So.  In that respect, we are correct in saying a person is not born gay.

Nevertheless, though you want to rant and rave about it, so many people believe they are 'born that way'.  I don't ... but.  Perhaps there is an over-riding tendency, a predisposition, an inclination which develops over time which convinces people they had to be born that way?  Otherwise, why do people believe they are born that way?  Michael tries to answer that - and it bears repeating, over and over, I guess - but it doesn't always agree with every ones experience of self.

The fact is - not everyone is able or willing to go there.  Not everyone feels able to 'change'.  We need to accept the individual where they are at - as Christ does, as the Church does - without binding up burdens too heavy to carry.  The Church calls gay people to conversion, to chastity, to sanctify their lives - to become saints.

Michael expands his case, and steps into the 'no homosexual can or should be ordained' as well as 'gay priests should resign' - these are not direct quotes, but they come close.  I've covered that before as well - fact is, they are ordained, while some may only figure out they have those 'inclinations' after ordination.  Mike has this to say:
An ordained man of God who in the quiet of his own mind, whether he accepts it or not, detects in himself a strain of homosexuality can be injurious to souls. This is why the acceptance or accommodation of this or the lack of willingness to confront it among Church leaders is so dangerous to the faithful. The message is not being sufficiently preached that no one is created by God as a homosexual. - cmtv

Many good priests will disagree on that point.  One priest who commented on the post did so:
Yes, but as a priest I would want to broaden the discussion to include the way God's grace does work in the lives of those "gay" priests who seek to follow the celibate life and are prayerful and loyal to the Church's teachings. I am not one of them, but I know some, and they are exemplary priests. In other words, God works through them because they have chosen to follow His way and not the way of the world. Nor are these men few in number and we should not bracket them with others who will not or cannot remain faithful. You said before, "do not limit God". That applies even here. Whether they should have been ordained or not is another question. What is clear in their lives is that God is working through them and within them to bring them to holiness.  - Fr. Abberton
I agree with Fr. Abberton.  I like how he repeated Michael's 'coming out' exhortation: "Do not limit God."

I would only add, God knows how to deal with each person - me and you and them, as well as our limitations - we need to trust Him on that, and 'not limit God'..

From yesterday's first reading at Mass, there just may be some good advice to squeeze out for all of us who feel called to moralize on these topics:

"James responded ... It is my judgment, therefore, that we ought to stop troubling the Gentiles who turn to God, but tell them to avoid pollution from idols, unlawful marriage ... and so on." -Acts 15: 7-12

I don't think it is all that hard, or too much of a stretch to substitute 'gay Catholics' for Gentiles in that passage, for my purposes here at least.  Especially as it concerns insisting people stop saying gay and imposing all the rules people want others to conform to.  I'm fairly certain Pope Francis would say the same thing - or at least it is probably what he meant when he said: "If a person is gay and truly seeks God - who am I to judge?"  Just yesterday, Pope Francis had this to say:

“The Holy Spirit and we have decided….” This is the way of the Church when faced with novelties, the Pope said. Not the worldly novelties of fashion, but the novelties of the Spirit who always surprises us. How does the Church resolve these problems? Through meetings and discussions, listening and praying, before making a final decision. This is the way of the Church when the Spirit surprises us, Pope Francis said, recalling the resistance that emerged in recent times during the Second Vatican Council. - Pope Francis

I may be wrong, so read your Catechism and the Documents from the CDF and seek counsel from your priests and bishops.  And pray and frequent the sacraments.  There are many good priests to help people who truly seek God.  Likewise there is Courage Apostolate,  The primary goal of Courage is to help and support men and women "live chaste lives in accordance with the Roman Catholic Church’s teaching on homosexuality." [...] "Courage meetings are not group therapy, and no Courage member is required to seek counseling or treatment of any kind."
The focus of Courage ministry is the development of a life of interior chastity in union with Christ. Chastity itself is the fruit of a dynamic relationship with Christ based on love, discipleship, holiness, and charity. Courage believes with the Church that all persons are called to, and are capable of living, a life of holiness and chastity. This is true no matter what our attractions or temptations may be, and even if particular vulnerabilities remain with us for our whole lives. - Courage FAQs

No Catholic is required to join Courage or become a life-long member of any support-self-help group - but Courage is the very best pastoral response to persons with same sex attraction that I know of.  Each group has an ordained spiritual director/moderator - for a reason.  Converted gays sometimes think they have the final say on how gay people need to be evangelized - as I always say - some can be like dry drunks:  Take the booze out of the fruitcake - you still have fruitcake.

God bless and don't let online former homosexuals scare you away from seeking salvation.  Trust in God.


19 comments:

  1. Terry, I really do not understand your support of Voris. He does a video saying we should not limit Gpd, then says no man with any homosexual tendencies should be s priest. What else is that but limiting God? And why would Voris show such fear and contempt of homosexuals? It is obvious that he feels that way about himself. Maybe you say I am over psycho analyzing him and being too judgmental, but it is so obvious to me that Voris is a very troubled man who has never come to terms with his own homosexuality. In his "confession", he says he lived with homosexual men, that he had homosexual relations, but he never actually says, "I am a homosexual." As you know far better than I, being gay is an integral part of a person just as being heterosexual is. And that is why the gay community deserves our compassion and love, not our fear and hatred as displayed by Voris. There is no evidence that people are "born that way"' but being gay is also most definitely not a choice, anymore than being heterosexual is a choice.

    As I wrote on my blog, it is so obvious to me that Voris has tremendous shame and self hatred, and he is projecting it onto the clergy in the Catholic Church. He says we cannot trust homosexual priests. I believe what he is really saying is that he doesn't trust himself. In that sense, he is absolutely right. As long Voris is in self denial about himself, no one should trust him. He is a ticking time bomb.

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    1. Darn it - I just wrote the best comment and lost it. Hate it when that happens.

      I think I support his 'stance' because it accords well with Catholic teaching, and I agree with Catholic teaching, which I thought I'd pointed out in the post. I'm pretty much just saying that he's simply repeating Catholic teaching, which obviously helps to allay his readers fears that he's still some kind of practicing homo. However, gay people do not need us to bang them over their heads with this 'not born this way' stuff, or use it as a litmus test to see just how Catholic someone really is. As the Spiritual Friendship people say - it turns people away - and I've learned it's another hurdle or obstacle to inquiry - and no one listens to that.

      I thought I made it clear what the Church teaches and that the Church doesn't ask or insist that someone say they are not born that way. I pointed out that the person is called to sanctity and chastity, and so on. I wasn't necessarily affirming Voris - just pointing out that he's repeating these things - perhaps in an effort to convince everyone that he's not gay or even ssa. I'll let others challenge him on that - but it's pretty much the 'script' for ex-gays.

      I will say I also have lived with self-hate and shame and so I get it with Michael - he may not see it that way - and I can't judge him either way. I feel sorry for him - I have compassion for him - I always have. I pretty much sensed his 'condition'. I also understand to some extent his rage against clergy, I just don't approve it. I also think you have made a good point bringing that out. I agree. I'm also sad that he creates mistrust with the clergy - which is why I posted Fr. Abberton's comment. I used to do that too - but I now regret doing so - it's a blame game Voris may not be aware of. That's a great insight in saying he doesn't trust himself - which is a healthy understanding of course - it is simply wrong to project it onto others.

      "He never actually says I am a homosexual." I do that too. Like Nan says below, it can be healthier for some not to identify with sexual attraction. I just don't impose the POV on others any longer.

      Bishop Barron and other good priests have said good thing about how some people do 'come out' and accept themselves as gay - I've been persuaded they are correct - I don't see it that way for myself - but I'm not going to insist other people follow 'my' conscience.

      I came across a good priest on Tumblr who recommends Eve Tushnet's books and some of the Spiritual Friendship authors - I know other priests who do too. What I'm trying to say, we have to get over our fears and understand that we can't limit God - as Voris claimed, without understanding however, that he is limiting God by passing judgment upon others who don't agree with him.

      I rarely write about the deep wounds that are connected to the inclination. If as Paglia insist that it is a choice, it is not an informed choice when you are 4 years old. I will agree with Paglia that many gay men are either from screwed up families or screwed up childhoods - sometimes idyllic childhoods too though.

      It's complicated.



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    2. I printed the above w/out edit so as not to lose it again.

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    3. I also thought this sentence at the end of my post would be recognized as a sort of disclaimer:

      "God bless and don't let online former homosexuals scare you away from seeking salvation. Trust in God."

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  2. CiB, perhaps Boris doesn't take his entire identity from his nether regions. He doesn't equate himself with his behavior, which is fine. Having same sex attraction may not be a choice although Camille Paglia says that it is a choice and that all the gay men she knows are from screwed up families.

    I think it's healthier not to self identify based on sexual preferences.

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    1. Nan - I kind of responded to your comment up above as well.

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    2. Nan, there are very few of us who do not come from "screwed-up" families.

      However, I will most definitely concede that it is hard to find homosexuals who do not have troubled childhoods. But do you really believe that anyone would choose a life that goes against everything society considers normal, that someone would choose a life that causes so much pain and emotional and spiritual turmoil?

      I wonder how many homosexuals you have known. I have yet to meet any gay people who consciously chose to be homosexual. Can you point out anyone who said I choose homosexuality over heterosexuality? It seems to be that Camille Paglia is contradicting herself. She says every gay man she has ever known has come from a very troubled childhood which led to their sexuality, and yet she says they "choose" to be gay. Yea, just like they "choose" their screwed up families.

      Doesn't that sound like blaming the victim?

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  3. I agree with "CIB" that Voris is really taking his self hatred and projecting his own past on others. So no gay priest can be trusted...(I have a feeling that is his own feelings that he can't trust...) that means no one with sin can ever be a priest? No one who was screwing his way through high school with women can ever be a priest?

    Voris seems typical of ex-addicts that they go overboard on their "vice" and become crusaders against itt as if everyone else in the world was an addict... I am not saying he actually is a sex addict, but he shows all the signs of being one....jumping from one obsession to another "healthier" one, filled with anger etc, and actually being narcissistic...

    My own armchair analysis of Voris is that he is under some really heavy psychological stress...imagine, a gay kid who obviously was steeped in the Catholic faith and all its "issues," with not just gays but sex period (and if not the Church, lets say some of its practitioners and clergy interpret nocturne in a very, anti sex kind of way) goes to seminary, sees all the gay stuff that he might have been running from going on there, disillusioned he leaves and enters into the "gay lifestyle," he has all the accumulated rhetoric for years that its not normal, its unhealthy, your cut off from God, etc, he might have some obsessive/compulsive stuff going on anyone, and goes CRAZY out there ( I mean why not going to hell in the hand basket might as well enjoy it) or he might have just been like any 20 something and sowed his wild oats..normal thing but when your obviously it caused a rift in his family, I think his brother died if I am correct...his Mom is sick and tries to get him out of the"lifestyle," praying for him and then she dies. Imagine the guilt on this good Catholic boy with that one ( I am not demonizing Mrs. Voris I am sure she did not want that to happen) So there is just maybe two years, where he jumps into a ministry or whatever he is calling it, which is HEAVILY anti gay,,not jus that, dedicated to "rooting gays out of the Church" as a witch hunt. It seems he exchanged one obsession with another, without a breather to even look at his life and focus on who he really is and instead of focusing on himself, he is going outward and hunting the gays out there..maybe if he catches the last one and finally rids the Church of this evil, he will have rid himself of that evil also..."Are the lambs still crying Clarice???"

    Okay, that would have gotten just a C at most in psychology class but...the thing is, Voris can work his sh*t out anyway he wants but he is hurting others. He is hurting priests both gay and straight by throwing suspicions on them, he is hurting Mr and Mrs. Joe Pewsitter who have to wonder if their artistically inclined priest has a gay satanic rites to open the gates to hell, and he is hurting the moms and dads of kids who might be gay, or the little gay kids themselves...(can you imagine living in a Church Militant household and listening to your parents idol go on and on about evil gays..there is no way that you would ever talk to them about your feelings.) So Voris is creating the same circle of misunderstanding and guilt that he himself might have been a product of. Nice going Mikey, nice way to hand it down.

    I humbly suggest Mike take time off, go see a therapist, or a priest or spiritual advisor he trusts and work out his issues before hurting anyone else. I have a lot of sympathy for Voris and his struggles, I have NO sympathy for him to be part of making someone else's struggles just as difficult. You can't save yourself by throwing someone else into the flames of hell.

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    1. Good points Mack. Unless he does a detailed account of his homosexual past - we'll never know how deep into it he was. Did he go to bars? Baths? Could he dance? Did he wear t-shirts and jeans? LOL! Or did he do the elegant-designer gay life? He had lovers he lived with - so that's pretty gay.

      CIB makes a lot of good points.

      I think I got really sad because I used to be like Voris myself - self-loathing will do that to a person. I still struggle - obviously.

      Thanks for commenting Mack!

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    2. Did he go to bars? Baths? (Oh, why did you have to say that!!!)

      Could he dance? (I think not...but then again, neither can I..does that make us "less" gay?)

      Did he wear t-shirts and jeans? (Yes, and it said "Frankie Says Relax")

      Or did he do the elegant-designer gay life? (Hmm, I can't see it, but he does have different little outfits for his videos, but they all look ill fitting...maybe that serious and mean girl with the dark hair who works for him who could help him out..she dresses nice.)

      He had lovers he lived with - so that's pretty gay.( That's it SO gay!! : ) I just can't picture Voris having a domestic life as a gay man...but then, I have a hard time seeing myself do that too but....)

      We all struggle with whatever our issue is. We just have to be more patient with people who are struggling and put ourselves in their shoes, their issue may be different but the struggle is there. Both Voris and I both need to be more patient with others and not overlook our own issues.

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    3. Laughing here. Thanks Mack!

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    1. Hey - I finally did link to one of your blogs. You have so many, I didn't know which to link to.

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  5. The Church herself says that no one with "deep seated" homosexual tendencies should be ordained. Obviously, anyone who identifies as "gay" has deep-seated tendencies. It seems self-evident that those priests who consider themselves gay should never have been ordained. I saw a video filmed by a homosexual priest who went to Rome with three homosexual priest friends. He spent his time video-taping the genitals of the little cherubs in the churches and in another clip two dogs mating in the street. I knew the priest personally. He never should have been ordained. He is now out thank God for the flock.

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    1. I've written pages on that myself.

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  6. I wonder if Voris wanted to be a priest and realized he shouldn't be. He seems bitter, obsessed and compulsive. But what the heck do I know?!

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  7. Rumors have it he was a seminarian at one time.Terry would know for sure.

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  8. I was born ignorant.
    I was born inarticulate.
    I was born inattentive.
    I was born impatient.
    I was born forgetful.
    I was born without any great virtue.
    I was born hungry.
    I was born nearly blind.
    I was born small.
    I was born weak.
    I was born prone to chills.
    I was born without philosophy.
    I was born without mathematics.
    I was born without deportment.
    I was born without politeness.
    I was born all oblivious of being born.

    None of these things would I want to remain forever.
    I was born human; I was born a boy; what else of it matters?

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  9. Mack said, "Did he wear t-shirts and jeans? (Yes, and it said "Frankie Says Relax"). No, actually it said "No One Knows I'm a Lesbian."
    Terry said, "Take the booze out of the fruitcake - you still have fruitcake." ROFLOL yep - identify

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