A church in Mosul.
"In reality, those who participate in the Mass don't do so because they think or want to believe they are superior to others, but precisely because they know they are in need" of God's mercy, he said.
"We go to Mass because we know we are sinners and want Jesus' forgiveness," the pope said. "When, at the beginning of Mass, we say, 'I confess,' it's not something pro forma. It's a real act of penance." - Source
To compare Mass to a cruise ship imbued with the spirit of anti-Christ strikes me as rather arrogant, even the angels who are present would not dare to revile Mass in such a way.
We need to repent. We need to shape up. We need to remind ourselves of all those who suffer persecution, and are denied access even to a Catholic church, how they would give anything to attend Mass and receive Holy Communion - even at a simple Word and Communion service.
After my Sunday Mass Chat post, a friend wrote offering to pick me up and take me along with the family to the FSSP Mass on Sunday mornings. I did not intend my post to come off as a complaint or a denigration of the ordinary form of Mass I attend. That wasn't at all the intention of my post. As I said, my parish church is fine for me - I believe in the Eucharist - I know the Mass, even when it has been reduced to the essentials. I recognize Christ in the breaking of the bread - it is a wonderful grace I have been given. I am able to tune out a lot of stuff. I prepare for Mass. I pray before, and I spend as much time as possible afterwards in thanksgiving, in the presence of God. I explained to my friend I had no need to go elsewhere.
Amen and amen.
ReplyDeleteIn addition to what you wrote Terry, I wish to say that I firmly believe certain people are *called* to go to Mass in what some would denigrate as "a cruise ship imbued with the spirit of anti-Christ". When one considers that it is the same sacrifice taking place, the call to make reparation, to love Christ in that Mass, the "cruise-ship-anti-christ" statement is astonishingly arrogant.
I am reminded, in fact, of a letter that J.R.R. Tolkien wrote to his son, telling him that he (his son) should attend Mass precisely at those places in which the congregation acted like the greatest act of love was not taking place on the altar, telling him further to offer it up for them, and to pray for them. Tolkien actually describes the types of people at such churches in this letter and the descriptions are evocative of the lukewarm fuzziness prevalent today. Does Tolkien, the champion of tradition and great lover of Christ's Church, start railing on a campaign? Nope. He tells his son to choose to go to those particular churches in which said lukewarmness was taking place.
Amen and amen!
DeleteInteresting discussion, Terry. In our search for a new parish after leaving Minnesota, we've been confronted with many challenges along these lines. Do we go to the parish that has a sloppy Mass and less-than-reverent attendees because we might be able to offer something and set a good example, even though we might face great frustration that starts to denigrate our own faith? Or do we go to the Mass that is much more to our liking, reinforces our faith and helps grow it, although that parish may not "need" us. (I doubt, for example, that I ever could have done anything at St. Agnes to enhance that Mass beyond what it already was.)
ReplyDelete(By the way, this has nothing to do with EF vs OF - imperfect though it may be, the OF is valid. The way it's said, on the other hand... )
This touches back on, if you'll forgive me for digressing a moment, the problems I have with the current pope. Whether or not he's being misquoted, his leadership of the Church is proving a challenge not only to me, but to many people. As my wife has commented more than once, it's starting to look more and more like the (Paul-era) Church that she left in the first place. She came back, despite not a few misgivings, because of the strength of JPII, whom she admired greatly, and Benedict, whom she considered a great man. Now, although she's not going anywhere, she's back to asking (in the intellectual sense) whether or not this is a Church that gives one any reason to belong. As a convert, I'm not sorry for having joined the Church, but I ask myself the same question - would I have made the move knowing that this is the Church I was joining? I wonder.
Yes, we have the Mass and the Eucharist, which the Protestants lack, but to reinforce one's faith one sometimes needs not to be a proselytizer, but a proselytized. And at this point I don't think we can choose the lukewarm parish, because we need to have our faith warmed up as well. I do admire your ability to block out these distractions (even though you're well aware of them); I'm certainly not there by a long shot. And my greatest fear is that there are many who not only will not get there, they'll never even know it was an option, because they'll never see the inside of a Catholic Church. Yes, the sacrifice is real no matter where we are, as Paul points out - but if it's done in such a way that we don't even realize that it's a sacrifice, have no concept of the sacrificial nature of the Mass and the faith, then where are we? I don't think that's arrogance; in fact, it's a certain humility that admits our faith isn't strong enough to repel the attacks that come to it from the cruise-ship mentality. (As to whether or not one can admit to humility without that in and of itself becoming an act of arrogance, I wouldn't presume to know!)
Thanks Mitchell. Believe me when I tell you I do not go to Mass to set an example. OMG! God forbid. I hope no one ever does that.
DeleteI didn't intend this to be a critical statement against any one or chance to criticize the devotion or lack there of of any one. The subject and the cruise-ship comments helped me to express what I believe is our personal responsibility. If reverence is lacking, add it - you will find it.
Over the years I have seen many devout people, men and women, deep in prayer - even at so-called 'charismatic' Masses. I've known men and women in their 80's who never wavered in their faith and devotion to daily Mass - they came through many abuses and their faith remained strong - their devotion a steady flame - like the sanctuary candle. Have things bothered them? Oh yes! But they would never walk out on Our Lord at Communion time - nor neglect Him after devout reception. Likewise, never would they consider themselves an example to others.
Reverence, worship is a matter of the heart, as Our Lord explained to the Samaritan woman. We need to live a devout life if we hope to assist at Mass devoutly. We need to pray and to meditate - we need to practice the presence of God - uniting ourselves to Christ in the Eucharist through frequent spiritual communions when sacramental communion is not possible. Then, when we receive Communion - our communion will be sacramental and spiritual - we will offer to God authentic worship in spirit and truth.
I returned to the Church during the pontificate of Paul VI, whom I consider a saint. I encountered the worst priests and religious, the worst abuses during his reign, - especially in Rome. However, I had no doubt about his sanctity. In Rome I tried to be at every one of his Masses I could - but I was content to be at any priest's Mass if I couldn't. The Mass is the Mass.
As for me, I wouldn't presume to evaluate the Ordinary Form of Mass as valid but imperfect. That would be what I meant by the suggestion of arrogance - passing judgement on sacred matter. Something angels would never do - even though they too are present at Mass and worship Christ in the Eucharist.
That said, if one's faith leads one to the exclusive use of the EF - that is fully approved by the Church - nothing wrong with it. Denigrating the Ordinary Form cannot be pleasing to God. You know as well as I that St. Agnes celebrates the Ordinary Form - and there is nothing wrong with that. The entire Church celebrates the Ordinary Form - it is the Ordinary Form of Mass for Roman Catholics.
I have friends whose faith may be weak - I can't judge. However, they have gone to Protestant sects, left the Church for Anglicanism, the Orthodox rite, and so on. My first reaction is always fear for their salvation - but something led them away - they found acceptance, they found a way to worship to suit their spirit - whatever the reason - that is their state, that is where they are at in the spiritual life. God sees the heart, God is the only judge. That said, what they all have in common - at least those I know - is that they never mock of denigrate the Mass. (Well, maybe the Orthodox do.)
It is not my place to judge. I know what the Church teaches. I know that the there is one Mass with two forms. I cannot denigrate either. I believe in the real presence. I believe the Mass is a sacrifice - that is re-presents the Sacrifice on Calvary. I believe. Faith is a gift from God. I always pray for an increase of faith, hope and love. We need to ask for a living faith.
As you know, I also have no problems with Pope Francis. I don't know what to say to those people who do.
But God Himself passes judgment on sacred matter and we would do well to pay attention to His view of what is proper worship, if in fact we are desirous to be humble and pleasing to Him: http://unamsanctamcatholicam.blogspot.com/2007/07/is-liturgy-really-that-big-deal.html
DeleteWhen we esteem one valid form over another we necessarily denigrate the other. God is not pleased by that. We cannot set ourselves up as judge and arbiter over what God has permitted. Christ gave power to the Church. The Ordinary Form of Mass is holy. If abuse takes place, it is the Church who will judge and sort that out. At this time in the history of salvation God does not exact justice in the same way as was done in the Old Testament - Christ has come and will return as just judge - everything is subject to Christ and His Church.
DeleteThat said, I think the justice exacted in the Old Testament may be understood mystically - in the light of the New Covenant - but it is the place of the Magisterium to interpret it for us. The Fathers of the Church have indeed explained the Old Testament for us in that way. The Pope along with the teaching magisterium - the Holy See does not condemn the Novus Ordo, nor does it say it is less than the Extraordinary Form.
You see the problem I hope. Declaring one better than the other is not pleasing to God and is contrary to the mind of the Church. Those who do that render themselves unable to pray or worship except in the place they deem better than the other. They are no longer capable of praying everywhere - in spirit and truth - which is the worship God desires. Such an individual has limited his prayer and worship and is to some extent wanting in true devotion. This can in some cases lead to inconstancy and neglect. (I won't go to Mass this weekend because I can't get to an EF Mass. Or, I won't go to confession to this priest because he is too liberal - therefore I'll not confess at all.)
Deprived of their liturgical preference, some have fallen away. This is because their fervor is based upon sensible delight and preference, sometimes self-opinion and pride. They have gone from parish to parish looking for the perfect Mass/experience - moving from this parish to that chapel. It's somewhat like the Gospel passage, "We piped you a tune but you did not dance, we sang a dirge but you did not mourn." Things are never quite right. The priest's Latin was off, he made that mistake in the rubrics, he didn't genuflect, and so on.
We need to mortify our personal preferences at times and bend our wills - submitting to the suffering of distractions and annoyances - recognizing something greater is happening independent of our emotional state or dispositions. We need to accustom ourselves to authentic prayer, spiritual recollection and devotion in faith. We need to approach Mass properly prepared and disposed - to the best of our ability - no matter which form we assist at.
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Fine for those new to the faith who need sensible devotion and the delight of great liturgy to grow in faith. It is good. It is good for all. The EF and wonderful liturgy is the gift of God - it is a great grace given to the Church. However - it is very wrong to condemn or disparage the Ordinary Form of mass and to make the claim it is neither efficacious or pleasing to God.
People who do that risk schism and some have even left the Church entirely.
By all means - attend the EF if that is what helps you grow in holiness, but do not condemn the OF or those who are faithful to the Ordinary Form and the discipline of the sacraments as approved by the Pope and the Magisterium. God cannot be pleased with those who do such things.
Sorry for the long reply - in editing I missed the last lines which fell out of sight - it simply reiterates the whole.
DeleteTerry, I don't think that it's necessary for you to try to answer those who aren't that enamored with the Pope - your own writings are an eloquent statement on that. I've no doubt that some of my problems with him are my own fault, while I'm also sanguine in knowing that no man - pope or not - is perfect. The fact that I'm not impressed with him speaks neither to my awe of the Church (which remains) or that of the Papacy - if not the man, one must always respect the office.
DeleteI still think the EF-OF argument is neither here nor there. When I refer to the OF as imperfect, I suggest that there are two things - the lack of sacrificial emphasis and the ability of the priest to freelance - that make it inherently subject to abuse. Does that mean it's less efficacious? Not at all. In fact, we don't go to an EF parish either - the ironic thing is that we're going to an Anglican-Use parish which has been quite welcoming to us. The translation of the Mass has, I think, far more of the sacrificial, hierarchical language that gives meaning to the actions, and it's done reverently. That is what I mean by seeking a Mass that can support your faith. I'd say that most of the Masses we've attended since my conversion have been in the OF, and I have no problem with that. After all, St. Agnes knew how to do it well!
God does not, as you say, and as far as I'm aware, exact justice in the same way today as was done in the Old Testament. But that's not the point. We can't explain away the truth of the Old Testament as a reliable revelation of God with some appeal to the mystical. However the OT is to be interpreted, the fact remains that it is true, and the truth of this particular portion reveals to us how seriously God takes worship of Him. Whether God responds in the same way as He once did is another matter, but the truth of the OT cannot be done away with or nullified. If He is the same yesterday, today and forever, and if worship was a big deal then, then it's a big deal now.
DeleteI also think you err in chalking everything up to preference. Do you not believe that people who 'prefer' the EF are concerned with offering God proper worship? Is all that matters the heart, the interior? Surely Cardinal Ratzinger didn't think so in his Spirit of the Liturgy. Of course, both the EF and OF can be abused and both are subject to people not worshipping in spirit and truth. But it is false to argue, on the basis that one seems to be in greater continuity with Tradition and so has greater merit over another, that such a person is incapable of praying always and everywhere.
I also think we should observe distinctions when speaking about the holiness of the Mass: http://unamsanctamcatholicam.blogspot.com/2007/08/old-mass-is-more-meritorious-than-new.html
I'd also add in reply to your claim that we esteem one over the other at the expense of denigration that the question ought to be raised to the architects of the new Mass just what exactly was wrong with the old one? Is there not an implicit denigration of the old form in such novel push for change? In fact, aren't Catholics themselves who argue for the old form denigrated and sometimes mocked? I think you know what I'm referring to.
Mitchell, for what it's worth, I recommend that you go to the Church that helps you to grow in faith. My family attend the Church that needed help (my wife was one of the Choir Directors). She quit as director after a couple of years due to the constant complaining and rivalry among choir members---they all wanted solos and lots of new music even though the congregation didn't know it. My kids, now 22 and 18, refuse to go to Church because it is meaningless and boring. As much as we tried to counteract the influence of a less orthodox parish, we lost.
ReplyDeleteAll I can say is that working for a parish - esp. in 'music ministry' demands a very living faith if one wishes to acquire devotion. ;)
DeleteI also wouldn't go to church thinking I could reform or counteract the lack of orthodoxy.
Going to Mass is about worship - it is about God - not me.
Your kids may not have been taught that - if they went to Catholic school I mean.
That said - there is nothing wrong with finding a parish to suit you - to go to the EF instead of the OF. The problem arises when we exult one over the other, or worse, exult ourselves over others. We can congratulate ourselves for our good taste, our perfect worship while looking down on those who attend a Mass we consider imperfect. That is where I see the beginning of a problem.
Rick, that's what I mean. I feel for you and your family.
DeleteAnd Terry, I agree with you completely as to the reason why one goes to Mass. I do think that there are externals as well as internals that can aid one in that, which is why I put that kind of stock in how the Mass is said, not just what it is. But again, in case I've given the wrong impression, I don't mean to denigrate the OF as it is. There are, perhaps, some things inherent in its construction which I think make it less useful as a teaching tool than it might be, but that's a topic for another day and someone else to pursue! The OF it is the Mass that the Church has given us, and I accept it happily and without question. And, as I pointed out in an earlier comment, we don't go to an EF parish anyway. They can be just as smug, just as condescending, just as ignorant - because, in the end, those are human traits, and the Mass is a divine institution.
Keep in mind - I'm not trying to rip on anyone. I'm just saying that the Mass is divine, but us imperfect selves can affect how efficacious that Mass is, and in so doing we can take that into consideration in determining where we worship each week.
“Be very charitable; when one of your eyes sees what is not right, shut it and then open the other one! Change everything into good.” - Bl. Mary of Jesus Crucified
ReplyDeleteMy long comment was eaten by the comment monster, LOL. So two quick thoughts on how those deprived of the mass view poor liturgy and dubious preaching. Richard Stratton, a Vietnam POW, describes his sense of betrayal after returning from years of torture and humiliation to the 1970s version of the mass. I had a real conversion after my arrest, and was deeply disappointed at the jail/prison versions of the mass/communion service. I went three times over 12 months and was deeply disappointed each time. Inmates are starved for beauty of any kind (visual/audible) and there was nada. I often yearned to attend a evangelical style Bible service (sound familiar, Mitchell?) but didn't want to go through the many protestant services until I found the evangelical one.
ReplyDeleteI love Paul's comment, but it only works for those very strong in the faith.
Terry, maybe you want to sat that God wants us to be models as long as we don't think of ourselves as models...
I think I overstepped my bounds. I realize this is none of my business.
ReplyDeleteI thought it was a fascinating conversation with lots of good points made by all. It's a credit to you that your commentators make intelligent, educated points without devolving into the garbage found at most blogs.
DeleteWhat I mean by that is there is a point in these conversations and discussions when the subject matter goes beyond my competence. As the Imitation of Christ advises, it is better to to leave to every man his own opinion than to take part in quarrelsome talk.
DeleteThanks for this post Terry & your long comment above re the EF OF divide...I agree with you....
ReplyDeleteThis may be helpful to the discussion: http://www.ignatiusinsight.com/features2008/vanhove_mosebach_may08.asp
ReplyDeleteFurther to yesterday's discussion, I just found this and think it's good: http://unamsanctamcatholicam.blogspot.com/2008/04/are-they-really-same.html
DeleteI haven't been here for the last few days and only saw this post today. You are describing exactly what I have been experiencing. I was most definitely one of those who sat in judgment of the OF. The Mass had to meet MY expectations. Now I see the arrogance in this. Who am I to decide whether a Mass is sacred or not?
ReplyDeleteNow I go to Mass and try to be as prayerful as I can. As a result, every Mass I attend now is a beautiful, sacred and prayerful experience.
We get from the Mass what we bring to the Mass. Go in with an attitude, and you are cutting yourself off from the graces and from the very presence of Our Lord. Go in with a humble, open heart, realizing as Pope Francis said that we are sinners, and Our Lord will pour Himself into you.
Thank you! I agree and relate to what you have posted as well as what Terry has been saying all along. Reading all the commentary herein only confirms it. My desire is for a spirit of adoration and attentiveness when attending Mass.
DeleteTo worship and to adore Jesus , to ask to be forgiven and to accept that forgiveness. I pray for the attitude of the repentant publican and not that of the pharisee.
CIB - yes - you have described what I have been trying to say very well.
DeleteNow I go to Mass and try to be as prayerful as I can. As a result, every Mass I attend now is a beautiful, sacred and prayerful experience.
That is my experience as well. Thanks for adding to the conversation.
What's interesting about CIBs arguments is that it illustrates the sea change in Catholic thought in the last fifty years. Previously, the Catholic faith was the champion of reason (personified by Aquinas), and so boldly claimed the objective nature of things (spiritual and material). Now, in the era of relativism (ethical, aesthetic and epistemological) brought on by a democratic culture (something Plato wrote a lot about) we see the retreat to the subjective. A mass is appropriately sacred and edifying if I or we have the proper subjective disposition? Nonsense. If a mass is irreverent or worse, we certainly should be humble and console our Lord who allows himself to be poorly used, but we don't pretend black is white and adopt a quietest passivity.
DeleteI think it's wonderful that some can go to any Mass, no matter how well or badly the priest adheres to the rubrics. I don't happen to be one of those people. And I'm willing to bet conversations like this didn't take place before Vatican II. With that said, I am making a concerted effort at Mass where there is improvisation and borderline abuse to do as you would Terry, and that is to remember it is still Christ, no matter how the priest presents Him through the Holy Sacrifice. But I will do what I can to avoid those Masses in favor of those where the priest's celebration of the liturgy accords the appropriate reverence and respect owed to the sacrifice made on Calvary which happens in an unbloody way at every Mass.
ReplyDeleteAnd when I do attend a Mass celebrated in a less than respectful way, I remind myself that this might be the last Mass of my life. And that somewhere in the world there are Catholics who would give everything to have that about which I dare to complain.
Thanks for your good comment. I think I've made a mistake. I should have been more understanding of others when I posted this. I think I ought not to have posted it at all. I'm sorry.
DeleteI'm the one who needs to be sorry, not you. Stay as you are. We need you.
ReplyDelete