Monday, February 03, 2014

More speculation on what will be decided on Medjugorje.

From Vatican Insider, Andrea Tornielli.
The question thus remains open. The fact that the phenomenon is ongoing means it is unlikely a statement will be issued confirming it as supernatural. But those who are hoping for a negative assessment may also be disappointed. It may be useful to recall what has happened in Argentina over the past thirty years, in terms of the two apparitions witnessed in San Nicolas which is located 250 km outside Buenos Aires (but not in the diocese of Buenos Aires) and in Salta.
The apparitions of San Nicolas started in 1983 and have not stopped since (250 thousand faithful gather to pray on each anniversary); the seer, Gladys Quiroga de Motta, mother, grandmother and a very simple woman, gave herself up completely to the Church authorities and spends most of her day in silent prayer. The current bishop, Héctor Sabatino Cardelli, has celebrated mass and led processions in the place where the apparition was seen, on the banks of the Paraná river. A large shrine marks the spot, where a spring was also discovered. The Church has also approved the white scapular created especially for those who experience physical and spiritual suffering. The seer’s spiritual guide, Fr. Carlos Pérez, says he is convinced the apparition really did take place. More than 1800 messages relating to the apparition have been published in a volume approved by the former Bishop of San Nicolas, Domingo Salvador Castagna, who once stated: “I firmly believe this is an event of the Virgin Mary.”
Another case Jorge Mario Bergoglio dealt with, albeit from a distance, as an Argentine bishop, is that involving the apparitions in Salta, a province located 1,500 km away from Buenos Aires. In this case, the local archbishop, Mario Carniello, was far more sceptical.
Cardinal Bergoglio had invited his priests to handle the case of Salta with caution, to consult with the local clergy and to follow the instructions of the local archbishop. But here too, although ecclesiastical leaders were reluctant to acknowledge the supernatural nature of these apparitions, they did not prohibit pilgrimages to the site and efforts have always been made to ensure pastoral care is given to the pilgrims that visit.

Despite what other commentators say about Medjugorje and the Pope, it appears the Holy Father may be more favorable, more open to these events than we think.  From the same article:

In the Apostolic Exhortation “Evangelii Gaudium”, Francis states: “Popular piety enables us to see how the faith, once received, becomes embodied in a culture and is constantly passed on. Once looked down upon, popular piety came to be appreciated once more in the decades following the Council. In the Exhortation Evangelii Nuntiandi, Pope Paul VI gave a decisive impulse in this area. There he stated that popular piety “manifests a thirst for God which only the poor and the simple can know.”
It is “a legitimate way of living the faith,” Francis continues, referring back to the concluding document of the Fifth General Conference of the Episcopate of Latin America and the Caribbean, held in Aparecida, “a way of feeling part of the Church and a manner of being missionaries”; it brings with itself the grace of being a missionary, of coming out of oneself and setting out on pilgrimage: “Journeying together to shrines and taking part in other manifestations of popular piety, also by taking one’s children or inviting others, is in itself an evangelizing gesture”. Let us not stifle or presume to control this missionary power! To understand this reality we need to approach it with the gaze of the Good Shepherd, who seeks not to judge but to love.” - Vatican Insider
Paraphrasing Tornielli, this is what I think will happen:  Church officials will be reluctant to acknowledge the supernatural nature of the events at Medjugorje, but they will not prohibit pilgrimages to the site and they will make every effort to ensure excellent pastoral care is given to the pilgrims that visit.


  1. Andrea Tornielli may have good contacts on a number of things "inside the Vatican," but this is one area where I have my doubts about his reporting. He never cites what kind of source he is getting his information from. Is it coming from a Commission member anonymously? He doesn't say.

    I lost interest in his discernment of anything related to Medjugorje when he participated in the spread of a calumnious story about Bishop Zanic collaborating with the communists against the phenomena. Bishop Zanic, now dead and buried, could not defend himself from the grave, so Bishop Peric saw fit to take Tornielli to the woodshed on the matter. Here is his response in English.

    Setting all of that aside, Tornielli seems to think that if there is no evidence of a hoax or tricks, there can be no decision of, "constat de non supernaturalitate" (it can be affirmed as not supernatural), and concludes the Holy See will maintain the status quo of "non costat de supernaturalitate" (it cannot be affirmed as supernatural).

    I don't believe this is the case. Any phenomena can be dismissed as not supernatural, even if the Church is uncertain as to whether something is originating form hoax/tricks, or the diabolical, or even some natural/medical cause. For example, the Holy See may look at the sheer volume of messages and conclude that it does not know the origin; cannot prove that it is diabolical, or a hoax, or explained by anything natural, and still say: It can be affirmed as not supernatural.

    Tornielli is supposed to be an objective journalist, yet I do not see the objectivity in his writing on this subject, sadly.

    Pope Benedict XVI initiated this commission to answer, "the question of Medjugorje." That is what the Nuncio communicated to the people of BiH in 2010 when the commission was kicked off. Pope Francis can certainly change the mission, but I suspect like other popes, this one will surprise many with continuity on this case, with his predecessor. He has the light of much more information as the Holy Father than he did as Cardinal Bergoglio in Argentina.

    Some feel it would be cruel to bring to an end this phenomena within the Church itself because of pastoral reasons. Yet, our Catholic faith teaches us that the ends do not justify the means. If the Holy See has some kind of proof or evidence that this is not supernatural, even if the Church cannot prove that it is diabolical, a hoax/trick, or explainable by natural means (which she is not required to do), then I believe we will see the "constat de non…" Untruth cannot co-exist with truth, not even for the most noble of pastoral reasons.

    If the Church feels there is some possibility that it is of supernatural origin, but cannot prove it, then I think we may see the status quo continue. I have my doubts. Others are free to disagree.

    I think the Church is much more concerned with some of the spiritual side issues that are coming out of this age of "apparitions." Some of that has come out in points made by Pope Francis in recent months. Phenomena can bring people to the door, so to speak - even false ones like Bayside, as I have witnessed. But, there has to come a time when people brought to the door, need to walk through it and leave these things behind. There is no charity in not transitioning the baby from milk to solid food. I believe that is where Holy Church is going to try to move people and I think we will see a concerted effort to bring the explosion of private revelation claims down. Most of these all have their origins in Medjugorje.

    1. What a great comment.

    2. That is an excellent comment Diane - thank you for contributing here.

      I thought it was an interesting take by Tornielli regarding the Argentine apparitions. I've never been attracted to those claims either.

    3. Terry - thanks. I had never heard about these alleged apparitions in Salta, but a friend has. He sent me a translation of something, I believe from the diocese, and Tornielli may be partially mistaken, or possibly missing some info. I am going to look at it closer and will probably put something up later. What was sent to me is interesting if it is one and the same.

  2. Terry, your summary, is simply restating the position of the Church as it stands. There has always been pastoral support for pilgrims.

    But what the critics of Medjugorje are fearful of is that the Church will firm up its pastoral support in a more formal way.

    Tornielli does not risk his professional reputation by making up stories. And because he is the bearer of bad tidings for some Medjugorje critics they start to take pot shots at the messenger. This has always been their way.

    And if Tornielli is correct in saying that the Commission has found no evidence of any hoax or scam, then that’s the end of the story for the critics, although I am sure some of them will still make it their business to keep huffing and puffing to try and blow the house down.

    Meanwhile, dogs bark, but the caravan moves on.

    1. Unforutnately, Mr. Tornielli didn't explain that even if the Holy See finds no evidence of hoax, scam, the diabolical, natural/medical explanations, etc., the Church can still put forth a negative judgment. In other words, Holy Church is not required to prove that one of those other things are happening in order to say that something is not supernatural. In many cases, they cannot prove without a shadow of a doubt that something falls into such a category. They may have their hunches, but if you go back and look at negative judgments in the history of the Church, they don't tell us anything other than they are not worthy of belief, or not supernatural.

    2. at bg
      "if Tornielli is correct"....&.."Tornielli does not risk his reputation by making up stories"...if is a conjunction identifying the conditional clause and the other is a presumptuous speculation...which of course is the way of the champions of medjugorje...there are no bad tidings here for the critics since a phenomenon such as medjugorje which is held up by an appeal to ignorance has nothing to do with the Gospel or the deposit of the is basically a pharisaical cult..pray fast attend sacraments...etc..repeat as needed...this is conditioning a person not to love but to be a spiritual robot....i suppose it is better than no faith at diane says.. act consequentialism sabotages the tenets of the faith...the dogs bark, but the caravan moves on to where??? perdition.....or further into the desert without its dogs who are too weary to follow the crazy caravan..without its watchdogs the carvan is headed for peril.....res ipsa loquitor...abusus non tollit usum..just because everyone is ignoring the bishop does not mean that automatically this canon norm is not important....

  3. I go with Tornielli on this one. He knows what he’s talking about. :)

  4. FWIW - here is my response to Andrea Tornielli's article. Yes, it's long, but breaking it up into pieces might have been more of a problem for me. I know most will not be interested in the subject, but I also know from experience, that those who are truly discerning the matter and are conflicted, will cruise right through this without any qualms about length.

  5. Is DK and her blog objective? :) Shades of pot calling kettle black.:) Truly discerning? That’s put another smile on my face! :)

    As I posted earlier, when you don’t like the news, then shoot the messenger. Always a tried and tested tactic by those who set out to muddy the waters.

    Diane, it’s over. Live with it. Accept it. Move on. Tornielli has marked your card and everyone else’s. He knows the score. He’s a ‘Vatican Insider’. :)

  6. Bernard, nothing is over until the Holy Father sings. Don't count your chickens before they hatch. Wait for the Holy See.

  7. ..what the pope has said is taken out of context..Medjugorje is not a become a national shrine you need approval by the bishop conference..the zadar comiision never dedicated a be an international shrine you need the pope..however it makes no sense..just as an athlete who proves her mettle at the national level will go onto the international level as an never become an olympian and then a nathional hero and then a local hero..medjugorje is quite backwards in too with shrine dont have an international shrine without a national one first...since faith is the perfection of the is never prudent to replace faith with temararious presumption...this argument above is weakly probable...this vatican insider is full of rash presuming..its the bishop who counts as well as the bishop's conference....i am ashamed to be a catholic when i am represented by clumsy graceless insiders who rashly presume and so give the faithful a sense of immoderate hope..these types of articles represent a dissension of common sense...presuming medjugorje is true and defying two local ordinaries for 30 years is not " a legitimate way of living the faith..".. this is no what the pope means....this pernicious insinuation pits the Church against itself.. what a heresy this medjugorje is..quite sad...prayer and fasting without obedience are exercises in vanity..its superficial like telling God look how thin i am now i am on this pious diet..its vapid if one is courting God or flirting but not seriouslly loving him...but i suppose its better than nothing

  8. John, it may make no sense to you – that I can accept, but it may make sense to the Holy See. :)

    It made sense to the Yugoslav bishops as well:

    It was in August 1993, two years after the episcopal bishops of Yugoslavia’s declaration on the Medjugorje phenomenon, that the conference president Cardinal Franjo Kuharic stated:

    “We bishops, after a three-year-long commission study accept Medjugorje as a holy place, AS A SHRINE. This means we have nothing against it if someone venerates the Mother of God in a manner also in agreement with the teaching and belief of the Church.”

    And that‘s the point so many are missing on the thrust of this latest commission. The apparitions are never going to be ‘proved’ by the Church. Neither it seems, according to Tornielli, is the Church about to condemn the claim of apparitions.

    The work of the Commission was primarily to study the question of “shrine status” an anomaly that occurred when the Yugoslavia Bishops Conference ceased to exist. Quite rightly the question was raised: Who is responsible for the shrine status as proclaimed by Cardinal Kuharic?

    Bishop Peric publicly stated that Medjugorje is not a shrine... (he saw what was coming). Two weeks later Benedict XVI commixed the Bosnia Herzegovina bishops’ conference to give further study to the Medjugorje phenomenon and in particular the question of shrine status.

    Somewhat of a poisoned chalice to the local bishop who was in no mood to take it on board. The BiH bishops got nowhere with the study and eventually handed back to Benedict XVI. The wise pope new this would be the case, but protocol demanded that the local bishop and national bc were given the opportunity to award study and solve the anomaly.

    So the ball is back in the court of the Holy See. The decision lies with the Holy See and no longer with the local bishop or the bc. Perhaps bishop Peric may be persuaded to take it on board, perhaps even the national conference. Whether the Vatican want all the problems associated with B+H and there are many in the wake of the disastrous Balkan war, remains to be seen. But recognition of a kind will be given, the fruits acknowledged, the tree protected.

    As Terry previously mentioned, pastoral care is the priority. Tornielli has also reported on this as a concern of the Commission. So that’s the next step. Actually pastoral care and improvements have been ongoing ever since the start of the Commission enquiry, but one would need to visit and be familiar with why is happening on the ground at Medjugorje to be able to observe and note the changes.

    Those who criticise from a distance are blind to these obvious signs and changes. Their vision is limited and so their judgment is limited also.

  9. “...since faith is the perfection of the intellect..” ???????

  10. ".Since faith is a virtue, its act must needs be perfect. ".....".Consequently faith, which is the proper principle of that act, must needs reside in the intellect."..."The truth is itself the good of the intellect, since it is its perfection: and consequently faith has a relation to some good in so far as it directs the intellect to the true. Furthermore, it has a relation to the good considered as the object of the will, inasmuch as it is formed by charity."...."On another way, obedience denotes an inclination to fulfil the commandments considered as a duty. On this way it is a special virtue, and a part of justice: for a man does his duty by his superior when he obeys him: and thus obedience follows faith, whereby man knows that God is his superior, Whom he must obey."..... thomas aquinas...summa question4 the virtue itself of to say the bishops after a three study have called this place a shrine is a CONTEXTOMY...the three year study was the zadar commission..since no other commission was done during the time of that comment you take out of context....the zadar commission never dedicated a shrine..what this prelate is saying must be taken loosely to mean unofficially this place is considered a shrine if mary is venerated according to Church principles however she is not venerated in this manner here since the commission stated it cannot be affirmed anything supernatural is occuring..and so this is no official shrine...since the moniker queen of peace is already reserved feast day July 9 or january 24 ...picpus fathers of france has the statue queen of peace...yet people continue to assert this shrine officially which is no is a matter of principles..if you didnt know that faith was the virtue which perfected the intellect then i feel some remorse is a good idea for you to do some reading this way you can lead your flock to a safer harbour..good luck!!...this is why faith is a dark light to the intellect since we are bent over by sin and we dont see the divine light..God is pure intellect and so we will actualize ourselves fully through faith and the beatific fulfilling the scripture now we see darkly(ie through faith) then we will see face to face (intellect to intellect) ...God bless

  11. So if ever the day arrives when I may be beset by dementia and my intellect is no longer “perfect” where then does my faith reside? :)

    Shrine status:

    And in all of your responses, never the word “love”.

    As for some recommended reading, perhaps you may wish to consider revisiting 1 Corinthians 13 : 1-13.

    peace – and love.

  12. has its relation to the good if formed by charity..maybe u missed that portion..maybe u are unaware that charity is love in faith perfects the intellect eventually the intellect need not be perfect for faith to dwell therein since it's illuminating capacity depends on the potential of the recipient of the are twisting the meaning here...remember love is not kindness...your contempt for gentle reproof betrays the spirit of perfects whatever it contacts whether it be the intellect the Hoi polloi or a towering one such as aquinas...the potency of faith comes from God so an inferior intellect cannot sully it yet a badly intentioned will can subvert it's effects and so faith without obedience to superiors shows a deficit of faith...good luck with your studies..remember charity and love are interchangeable...keep reading..

  13. So there are different levels of “perfection” according to the capacity of the recipient?

    But what all this has to do with Medjugorje beats me. :)

    Medjugorje is a merciful grace from God. Some choose to accept it, others don’t. I’m happy I accepted the grace that was afforded to me.

    BTW people’s brains and intellect take a severe pounding at Medjugorje. That’s why it doesn’t make sense to so many. I confess my brain took a beating for a number of days the first time I went to Medjugorje, but then I discovered God was seeking a place in my heart for his heart. The brain had trouble working that one out. :)

  14. ...there is only one are not reading what i typed..the potential of the recipient is a contingency as to what level of actualization they achieve lets say according to the expression of form via its mode of being ( to say someone who is sick is less has less potential for achieving perfection is incorrect:-)..we all have the potential to achieve perfection according to the measure of our mode, species and order....maybe i am not clear..that's fine i am learning as well...just trying to help..but you are a free agent..yet since you choose a public forum then you should be open for some friendly avoid more errors and a strung out screed..i would just say..if you owe your conversion to Medjugorje that is great...God is merciful..he writes straight with crooked a pen so to speak...if i were you i would start learning the faith and get out of Medjugorje since it is only a spiritual vestibule sort of an accesory net which God uses to catch souls...people are also converted after being subjected to the atrocities of war, the death of a loved one, a tragic life event, seeing the sun rise, watching monkeys skitter across a jungle canopy...this is not to say these are supernatural dinae says we need objective truth to hammer down any certitude..otherwise we cant have justified true belief..its all hints and speculation and precipitous conjecture...take the money and run..and dont waste your time at medjugorje because you are losing out on the richness the universal Church has to offer...but its your faith...but your credo of...Credo quia absurdum est..does not make sense since God without the teleology we see in nature and the intelligibility of creation we could never know him in the firstplace..dont let your heart by pass your head..anyway good luck

  15. To be absolutely truthful, John, my spiritual life has been enriched by the events and my several visits to Medjugorje. It is indeed a wonderful place and opportunity for people to find God in their lives. That’s why the Holy See is not intent on abandoning it. Rather, it is in the process of protecting the tree that produces so much good fruit. And if God chooses to bless people with his mercy at Medjugorje who are you, as a mere mortal like myself, to compare him to a monkey skittering across a jungle canopy?

    There is joy to be found in God’s mercy, be it at Medjugorje or in any jungle you may wish to name. And if God chooses to write in crooked lines, then let him. Medjugorje is not a waste of time. If it was, then why has the Church deliberated for so long and so often on the phenomenon?

    I can’t understand why some people begrudge those who are renewed in faith at Medjugorje. God doesn’t, so why should you? Should you deny God’s glory in the way you attempt to undermine all the graces over many years poured out and received at Medjugorje? Righteousness can be a terrible curse for anyone when used as a stick to beat others and undermine their faith. St Paul had this problem until he fell off his high horse. :)

  16. ..this last is rather long it may not go through yet i believe it might benefit u...anyway here typifies the spirit of medjugorje.....
    "Now mark this: when a man wishes to possess inward rest in idleness, without inward and desirous cleaving to God, then he is ready for all errors; for he is turned away from God, and inclined towards himself, in natural love, seeking and desiring consolation and sweetness and everything that pleases him. And such a man is like to a merchant, for in all his activity he is turned only towards himself, and seeks and means his own rest and his own profit, more than the glory of God. A man who thus lives in mere natural love, always possesses himself in self-love without self-renunciation. Such men often lead a hard life with great works of penitence, that they may become known and renowned for their great sanctity, and also that they may merit a great reward; for all natural love is favourably disposed to itself and likes to receive great honours in time and a great reward in eternity. And these men have many special desires, and pray and beseech God for many particular things. And thus they are often deceived; for sometimes, through the work of the devil, those things which they desire happen to them, and then they ascribe this to their sanctity, and hold themselves worthy of them all; for such people are proud, and neither touched nor enlightened by God. And therefore they dwell within themselves, and a small consolation may greatly rejoice them, for they know not what they lack. And they are wholly attached, in their desire, to inward savours and the spiritual refreshment of their nature. And this is called spiritual lust; for it is an inordinate attachment in natural love, which is always directed towards itself, and seeks its own profit in all things.

    Such men are always spiritually proud and self-willed; and this is why their desires and lusts are sometimes so vehemently set upon the things which they desire, and wilfully strive to acquire from God, so that they are often deceived, and some of them also become possessed by the devil. All these men live contrary to charity and to the loving introversion in which a man offers himself up, with all that he can achieve, for the honour and love of God; and in which nothing can give him rest or satisfaction but a single incomprehensible Good, which is God alone. For charity is a bond of love, in which we are drawn up to God, and through which we renounce ourselves, and whereby we are united with God and God is united with us. But natural love turns back towards itself, and towards its own profit, and ever abides alone. Nevertheless, in its outward works, natural love is as like unto charity as two hairs from the same head; but the intentions are different. For the good man always seeks and means and desires, with an aspiring heart, to glorify God; but in natural love a man has always himself and his own profit in mind. Therefore, when natural love opposes and conquers true charity the man falls into four sins; namely, spiritual pride, avarice, gluttony, and lust
    -From The Adornment of hte Spiritual Marriage-John VanRuysbroeck

  17. John, my final response. Thank you for your patience and concern, but be assured I am very happy in the place I am :) Thank you, Terry, also. :)

    (part 1 of 2 )

    I don’t have a problem with anyone choosing not to believe or accept the Medjugorje phenomenon. However I find it hard to accept that Catholic brothers and sisters go out of their way at any opportunity to condem and undermine Medjugorje, that they show no delight or express any joy at the number of conversions experienced there, take no time to celebrate and praise God for the lost sheep who have returned to the fold. Instead, they find time only to find fault. I find that really sad, not for myself but for those who set out on the path of condemnation in this way.

    The Catholic Church is strengthened through Medjugorje – lost sheep returning to the Sacraments, sheep from outside the fold entering the Church, new communities working for the Church, religious vocations, good fruit of all kinds.

    As for the apparitions… it’s not difficult for Mary to appear on earth anywhere she chooses, the difficulty is for the people who believe that this is not possible, or who are challenged by the messages and tend to dismiss them as trite and banal.

    For some, the message of salvation is always difficult to accept, even more so when it is not cloaked in the language of theology.

    And so we place ourselves in danger of becoming gods, the false gods we are warned against. We attempt to dictate the workings of God, which way the wind should blow and when. Our theology becomes theory and we start to tick boxes. Our understanding of God starts to become dictated by our intellect. God according to our intellect, forgetting that it is God who created us and all that we are.

    We lose our capcity to surrender. Pride starts to seep into hearts. We know it all, we have all the answers. And we begin to persecute others of faith because they can’t tick the boxes we want them to according to our own gospel.

    God help us and have mercy when we lose sight of him in this way, when we witness his miracles before our very eyes, God in our presence, but refuse to acknowledge his workings and grace amongst us. We become non-believers. We fail to understand the words we utter every Sunday: “I believe in God, the Father Almighty, creator of heaven and earth…” We pay only lip service… empty words that betray an empty heart, and yet our intellect is full of perceived knowledge and understanding, but knows little about surrender, has never grasped the implication or the full meaning of the “fiat” uttered by our Blessed Mother.

    Mary used her brain, her intellect, when she asked Gabriel: “How can this be, since I am a virgin?” And the angel explained: “The Holy Spirit will come upon you…”

    And was it Mary’s intellect that proclaimed the greatness of the Lord? No, it was her soul, her spirit, filled with the the gift of faith, that exulted God her saviour.

    That’s what happens at Medjugorje, the Holy Spirit comes upon people and power of the Most High touches souls, the hearts of so many – and they begin to proclaim the greatness of the Lord.

    It‘s also very simple. It’s not about God writing in crooked lines, but God and his saving power of mercy coming among his people who seek him. He responds, he brings them out of slavery, he journeys with them, he leads them home. He has shown the power of his arm, but he routs the proud of heart. He exhalts the lowly and fills the hungry with good things, but the rich he sends empty away. What need of Medjugorje those who have all they want from God?

  18. (part 2 of 2)

    Finally: Almost two million (1,876,800) Holy Communions distributed at Medjugorje in 2013, evidence of almost two million encounters with Christ at Medjugorje. In my book, that’s an awful lot of crooked lines to be writing in a small village like Medjugorje.

    Then there are the hundreds of thousands of encounters with Christ in Confession…

    Then there are the countless encounters with Christ in prayer at Medjugorje…

    People do not confess without being prompted by the Holy Spirit, do not pray without the Spirit prompting them.

    And then there is the presence of the Holy Spirit coming down on much bread and wine offered at the many Masses every day at Medjugorje.

    And yet you recommend that I (and I presume others) should abandon this holy place where the Holy Spirit is working overtime?

    You wish to deny the Holy Spirit the glory of coming into people’s hearts in this way, because your intellect, perhaps your heart as well, is unable to accept the feasability of Our Lady’s apparitions and her messages?

    And yet you admit that God writes in crooked lines, that is to say: nothing is impossible for God.

  19. ,,since when are ad populum arguments a basis for Justified true beliefs???...i suggest you consult the updated bishop's directives to see what is allowed and what is not allowed....i wonder how many of these communions are spiritually efficacious..since as it says in scripture..."Therefore, whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord"....Corinthinas you see is this good?? one properly disposed to take communion if they are not in spiritual consonance with the Church... or are we crucifying Christ all over again???we each need to examine ourselves before we move forward to see if we are moved by a spirit of charity which implies we take into consideration our duty of justice for all or whether we are simply doing things because it makes us feel good and the communion of saints is of no cosequence...look before you leap...and please dont mix up the tree of apparitions with the tree of the sacraments its two different things...medjugorje is an anti-ecclesial heresy of outrageous proportions..just because alot of people go there doesnt make it edifying for the credibility of the Church...everyone who goes there makes the BIshop look bad in turn making the Vatican look bad for appointing the Bishop...anyway i really should go because i am getting slowly pulled into this lacuna of logic..the black hole of self righteousness as you put it..sorry for standing up for bad..sorry for persecuting your notion of Christ..nothing is impoosble for God yet that which does not imply a logical impossibility...get it right please..God could never make a rock so big that he could never lift it because this is not POSSIBLE in a real world....there is a concept know as a paradox of omnipotence....meaning God does not work in things beyond the scope of reality...he doesnt sin, he doesnt create something and then take away its potency, God does not change either,and he doesnt do things which imply a logical you do the reading and you figure it out for yourself ..when you say GOd can do need qualify the term anything...the CHurch has also been unable to accept the feasability of these i am just siding with the Church.. I am not out there on my own as you imply..anyway bye ..& i am not an enemy of the Holy SPirit.or the sacraments addended by the pastoral seems by your reasoning the BIshop is an enemy of the Holy Spirit..and so were the Bishops who sat at the Zadar Commission...and well the Vatican is as well since the CDF recently told the USA congress of Bishops that the official stance of the Church is the Zadar it looks like you have alot of enemies on the inside...and it seems Mary is also an enemy of the phenonmenon because in scripture she tells us to listen to her Son....and the voice of Her Son comes from the magisterium of the Church when they make decrees which are within the scope of their authority to make (ie not sinful or impossible to follow)since the CHurch is the mystical Body of Christ...well i really have to thank the owner of this blog for not banning me yet... :-)


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