Friday, January 26, 2018

"Where are we now? The delegitimization of the event of Vatican II has been followed by delegitimization of the documents of Vatican II."

Where are we now?

I read that question on Fr. Martin's Facebook page.  Massimo Faggioli asked the question in his essay Obsessed with Continuity.

It's an interesting read.  I've certainly witnessed what Faggioli observes - the delegitimization of the Council leading to the delegitimization of the documents.  I think it goes hand in hand with the rejection of Pope Francis and the gradual turning against Pope Benedict XVI.  One comes across that notion on the websites and blogs of the more outspoken traditionalist critics online - be they fringe types or not - their views are shared to some degree by other traditionalists.

When private revelation agrees with the rejection of Vatican II.

Someone who friended me on Facebook posted something about followers of Maria Divine Mercy 'getting possessed'.  I asked where she heard this, she said Fr. Paul Kramer published it.  Fr. Kramer is a former colleague of Fr. Gruner and the nutty Fatima cult.  Need I say more?  My point in mentioning this is the appetite people have for private revelation increases in a time of general confusion and moral ambiguity.

One must be careful of even 'approved' locutions.

Locutions are not necessarily ever approved, but frequently a spiritual director and a person's bishop may give permission to publish the meditations of a person who claims to receive locutions, while the publication would be allowed for the edification of the faithful and to increase devotion.  That doesn't necessarily mean the locution are 'approved' - there is simply nothing contrary to the faith in them.  As St. Hannibal Madia di Francia explained:
My dear father, to consider any expression of the private revelations as dogma or propositions near of faith is always imprudent! The mistakes could amount to thousands. Poulain substantiates this fact with examples of saints we venerate on the altars. It is not surprising because the visions or the news undergoes some modifications while passing through human channels… Aptitudes and dispositions may not be the same: a psychological, moral spiritual, physical event can modify them, hindering the spiritual enlightenment from shining perfectly in the soul. Thus the person is unaware of circumstances, details or propositions, and is mistaken involuntarily. In fact, everything is received through and according to the subject.
This is proved by experience, by the mystical theologians, such as St. John of the Cross, St. Teresa, Castrotevere, Poulain, etc. By prudence and reason we cannot accept all the words of revelations as they were propositions near to the faith; still less when they are contrary to the authoritative opinion of renowned writers and to the simple, beneficial devotion of the saints. - Source

"We cannot consider the revelations and the locutions as words of Scripture."

Today it is especially important to keep this in mind, and to be especially careful of any locution which casts doubts upon the teaching Magisterium of the Church.  'Heavenly' complaints of actual liturgical abuses may be one thing, but to controvert the will of all the Popes since the Council regarding the Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite could indicate a subjective prejudice for the Usus Antiquior, as well as a more human point of view in keeping with the personal preference of the mystic.  In other words, if Our Lord or Our Lady are making known a heavenly predilection for the Extraordinary Form over the Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite, I'd say something may be off with the locutions and one needs to discern very carefully.  The meditations may be spiritually rich and nourishing, but like the Imitation of Christ, by Thomas a Kempis, though inspired, they may be the author's own words and not actual locutions.

Keep in mind, all the Popes since Vatican II have celebrated the Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite and have supported Vatican II while endeavoring to interpret and implement its Constitutions and decrees.  Beware of those Catholics who suggest or claim the Ordinary Form is a bad Mass, and that Vatican II was a bad Council.  If you fear apostasy, consider what such claims really mean.  If you put private revelation above Catholic teaching, you may end up like Fr. Paul Kramer and other sedevacantists who reject Pope Francis and Vatican II.

Something else to keep in mind.  2017 and the many prophecies and fears expressed by devout Fatima enthusiasts ought to demonstrate the unreliability of private interpretations of God's revelations and warnings, coming true at a specific time and in a literal manner.

"[...] Souls are misled by imparting to God's locutions and revelations a literal interpretation, and interpretation according to the outer rind. As has been explained, God's chief objective in conferring these revelations is to express and impart the elusive, spiritual meaning contained in the words. This spiritual meaning is richer and more plentiful than the literal meaning and transcends those limits."

[...] "Anyone bound to the letter, locution, form, or apprehensible figure cannot avoid serious error and will later become confused for having been led by the literal sense and not having allowed for the spiritual meaning which is divested of the literal sense. ('The letter kills, the spirit gives life' - 2 Cor. 3:6)" - Read St. John of the Cross, The Ascent, Bk II, Chapter 18 and 19

Song for this post here.


  1. I totally concur with the view that we should stick to the Documents of the Second Vatican Council. For example, we should stick to the following decisions included in the Constitution of the Sacred Liturgy:
    36. 1. Particular law remaining in force, the use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites.
    54. In Masses which are celebrated with the people…… steps should be taken so that the faithful may also be able to say or to sing together in Latin those parts of the Ordinary of the Mass which pertain to them.
    116. The Church acknowledges Gregorian chant as specially suited to the Roman liturgy: therefore, other things being equal, it should be given pride of place in liturgical services.

    1. I would like that as well.

    2. So would I.
      Properly interpreted and read without malice or preconceived ideology, there is nothing harmful in those documents.
      The alleged "discrepancies" are simply due to the cataclysmic changes in world history (especially Western Christendom) from the period 1789-1962, and can be compared to the message of, say, Daniel or Jeremiah as "opposed" to Elijah or Micah. =)

  2. Maybe we know more about loucations and visionaries because of the internet. Have you noticed the decline and silence in Fr. Gruner's group? I have. I have followed them for years out of interest in what they were peddling. The magazine, Fatima Crusader, which came at ,east four times per year is now nonexistent. Their yearly conference did not happen this year as far as I can tell. They may well resurrect themselves. I always thought there was a money raising motivation with Fr Gruner.

  3. The internet has made us more aware of these people. Father Gruener's group has all but disappeared. I followed them out of interest in their activities. They did frequent mailings and a yearly conference. You can see some of the speakers on You Tube. A wide variety of fringe scientists and theologians with some bizarre ideas. Since his death I have only two mailings and seen nothing about a yearly conference. I think maybe the money dried up. Not to worry though because there are many others. All discredit the current Church hierarchy and VC 2. On another topic. Is anyone else having problems posting? Many times my posts are published and appear for a short time but quickly disappear. Terry are you editing or is it a glitch in the blog system? Just wondering?

    1. No - I'm not editing comments so I'm not sure what is happening to your comments.

    2. I did not think so. I suspect it is something with this blog server. I think their technology is very antiquated. No edit ability, slow and persnickety. It does not always happen but has frequently. Maybe some conspiracy by a locutionists!

  4. I did not think it was you. This blog uses old technology and is the culprit I suspect. Either that or it is a conspiracy of locutionists! BTW it happened again this is my second attempt to post this. Weird!!!


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