On the apostasy in the Church.
Cardinal Burke is talking about apostasy in the Church and attributing to Sr. Lucia, and/or the Fatima message, statements purported to reveal an apostasy in the Church. It seems to me he may be putting words on Our Lady's lips.
People talk about a de facto schism. I am absolutely in opposition to any kind of formal schism — a schism can never be correct. People can, however, be living in a schismatic situation if the teaching of Christ has been abandoned. The more appropriate word would be the one Our Lady used in her message of Fatima — apostasy. There can be apostasy within the Church and this, in fact, is what is going on. - WandererI do not recall Our Lady ever using the word 'apostasy' in any of the messages of Fatima. I know commentators have interpreted the third secret as referring to an apostasy in the Church - even beginning at the top. I also know other private revelations, and or apparitions have claimed an apostasy in the Church: Akita, La Salette, and a strange quote from a 1963, Neues Europa article to name three examples.
“The work of the devil will infiltrate even into the Church in such a way that one will see cardinals opposing cardinals, bishops against bishops. The priests who venerate me will be scorned and opposed by their confreres…churches and altars sacked; the Church will be full of those who accept compromises and the demon will press many priests and consecrated souls to leave the service of the Lord.” - Akita
Nothing from Sr. Lucia or in the revealed secret of Fatima directly addresses an apostasy - when Our Lady said the 'dogma of faith' will remain in Portugal, many jumped on that statement to decipher what Our Lady meant, even going so far as to discredit Vatican II. These errors spread like wild fire online today. From the sounds of it, it seems Burke may even accept them as true.
Do we really need a special revelation from our Lady to tell us that there is an internal crisis of faith and discipline in the Church? And to warn about terrible persecutions, already gathering momentum in many countries? Aren’t we capable of reading the signs of the times ourselves? It seems that the Fatimists’ sleuthing is really a desperate attempt to find in the secrets an authoritative reason to reject Vatican II and all the Popes since Pius XII. - Fatima and the secret ...
What Our Lady asked for is to pray the rosary, pointing out that 'the Holy Father will have much to suffer'. There is an official interpretation of the Fatima revelations and the secret at the Vatican archives. If Mariologists wish to compare notes with other alleged apparitions and locutions, let them. But stop putting words on Our Lady's lips and spreading interpretations of the secret as if they are dogma. They are not.
I'm the same age as Burke - we both grew up with the same Fatima interpretations, frequently sensationalized by speculative theories, often ignoring corrections from Sr. Lucia herself. (Being from Wisconsin, Burke would know some of the looney interpretations as well. We were little kids in the McCarthy era.) Conspiracy theorists went so far as to claim the real Sr. Lucia was replaced with an impostor. Fr. Gruner and his followers, including Christopher Ferrara, proposed all sorts of preposterous positions, including the idea that the consecration of Russia has not been done properly. Card. Burke comes close to saying as much when he advocates for a new consecration as Our Lady asked.
If the Cardinal Burke Fatimists are looking for a great reversal of all that is wrong with the world, they may be mistaken, since Our Lord already told Lucia that the consecration would be made (it was) but it would be late (it was). I'm of the opinion that means the errors were spread, ingrained in world politics and religious 'apostasy'. In other words, the damage has been done. So we are living through the results. The consecration to the Sacred Heart in France was late, and the monarchy lost their heads, and the Revolution triumphed.
Part of the problems with apparition people is they think that if the whole world does this, that, and the other thing, according to the letter, God will have to reverse the consequences - on some level that may be true - as they say, 'if enough people' do it, it can be mitigated. Mitigated means the effects are lessened, but there will still be effects. The resolution to the problems - especially the loss of souls - has been given and made public since the apparitions at Fatima in 1917. The message of Fatima has been explicitly promoted by all of the Popes since Pius XII. It seems to me we need to continue to heed Our Lady's catechesis and peace plan, and accept whatever consequences there happen to be for not having followed Our Lady's requests from the outset.
To repeat the consecration of Russia (and the entire world) would be good to do as an act of reparation perhaps, but 'Fatimists' still won't be satisfied, they'll blame the popes and bishops for not having done so according their exact prescriptions - they will continue to insist it had never been accomplished before - despite the fact Sr. Lucia is on record saying it was accomplished.
I think the Pope needs to invite Cardinal Burke to a private audience to discuss these things.
Many of the Fatimists believe
a novel is actual history.
did you notice that Cardinal Burke said a few weeks ago that Russia was not consecrated by name because Russia no longer existed when Pope JPII did the consecration.
ReplyDeleteNow that Russia is no longer the USSR - it can be consecrated properly by name - Russia!
I was the one that came up with that reason a few years back.
Cardinal Burke stole it from me! LOL!
So you started it.
DeleteI start a lot! lol!
Deletemy impression is that what is contained in the hidden secret (if there is one) is so detrimental to the Rad Trad cause that they will form a Nationalist Army and murder the Fatima Pope once the entire secret is released to the Public.
ReplyDeleteSpeaking of a rad Trad stuff why aren't you covering Canadian stuff anymore on your blogs, dxv 515?
DeleteThere isn't a hidden secret. Sister Lucy was directed to share the 3rd vision and at a later date, to share her interpretation of it.
ReplyDeleteLast part of what you said - it's my understanding OL told her not to share her interpretation of it. That is always up to the Church and it was done and published on the Vatican website.
DeleteFr Altier gave the dates she was told to write it down and said that both letters were sent to the Vatican. Presumably they had Our Lady's permission?
DeleteNot sure which letters Altier is referring to - it may be the 1982 letter to JPII speaking of what the secret refers to and she did relate her personal interpretation, such as they had the impression the bishop in white was the pope and so on. In one of her memoirs she relates a later vision and OL instructed her to write it doen but leave the interpretation to the Church. Lucia agrred with the Vatican's interpretation of the secret saying:
Delete"Sister Lucia agreed with the interpretation that the third part of the “secret” was a prophetic vision, similar to those in sacred history. She repeated her conviction that the vision of Fatima concerns above all the struggle of atheistic Communism against the Church and against Christians, and describes the terrible sufferings of the victims of the faith in the twentieth century." Lucia never added speculation on the apostasy or VII being bad.
I didn't listen to Altier's tape so I don't know what he said. I have seen Fr. Altier in years but in the past I knew he was interested in several private revelations discussing similar things as Cardinal Burke.
Who am I to contradict?
Like I said, Doom! Gloom! Rosary! The letters were from 1944 and he gave the dates in his talk. Fr. Altier. No idea about JPII or Burke.
Delete"On the Last Day, the sheep will march off to heaven, and the goats will break into small discussion groups..."
DeleteAnthony Esolen
Gee ... I see this more and more everywhere I wander. I hope I too will be marched on to heaven rather than gather for some boring discussion that's been had, re-had and then some.
Almost forgot!
DeleteI will pray too that all of Terry's readers and Terry himself will be marched off to heaven where all gathered together we will rejoice at the sight of the eternal beauty that is the Holy Trinity.
Yaya I laughed out loud at the image of goats in small focus groups missing totally the splendor granted the sheep. I know where I want to be, but my stubborn nature keeps me tending to the goat group. Thank God we have time yet to wake up! Thanks for the laugh and insight.
DeleteDear wh,
DeleteThe beauty and great blessing is that none of us are obligated to accept any apparition of our Lady much less live by what they say since if I understand correctly, Christ alone is the fullness of The Father's revelation. I know that I am not statin it as the Church has taught us but you get my meaning.
Anyway, I had a good laugh too about the goats getting together to debate, debate, debate.
Even now as folks debate the so-called "secrets" of Fatima so much energy is wasted (imo) because not enough prayer is encouraged except by our Holy Father, who then gets bashed by being called a heretic or an apostate by the devout.
I hope in our Lady's protection of our Holy Father as he loves her so much by his witness. I am grateful for her messages of praying the rosary, calling us to repentance, praying for those who have no one to pray for.
I'm grateful too, not once has our Lady of Fatima said I am to speculate/waste time about "the secrets" as a means of working out my salvation.
Let's pray and hope we and those whom we love and don't love will all be marched onto heaven.
Have a great rest of the week kind wh!
Nan - FYI on the 1944 letter:
Delete"Another example of Fatimists’ private interpretation of this private revelation is their claim that there was a “fourth secret” given by Mary to the children at Fatima. In the official and historical account of the visitation, our Lady entrusted three secrets to the three children at Fatima. The first secret included a vision of Hell and God’s wish to establish devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary for the salvation of sinners; the second was a warning about the danger of a second world war and the spread of Soviet communism (a nascent, isolated movement at the time). Sr. Lucia wrote down the contents of these two secrets in 1941. She entrusted information about the third secret to her bishop in 1944, and it was sent to the Vatican in 1957. Pope John XXIII and his successors each read the secret and, in 2000, after much anticipation, the text of the secret was published by the Vatican."
There were 2 1944 letters. First, the third secret. Second, her interpretation thereof, which I think includes the belief that the bishop in white was the Holy father. Was it JPII? Tune in sept 23, only the Shadow knows.
DeleteWhat?
Only the virgin knows?
DeleteI know where Fr. A got his information! The letters! The letters!
DeleteCheck this out Nancy Drew:
https://kevinsymonds.com/2017/08/16/fatima-and-zavala/#more-1462
Gee, between this and Fr. Z's foot fetish (http://wdtprs.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/img_3072.jpg), today is turning out to be a terribe day. =(
ReplyDeleteI saw Fr. Z's post on that - he doesn't seem to like service dogs either. LOL!
DeleteAs the total eclipse approachs the Fatima hysterics grow. I wonder why we are prone as humans to always seek signs to tell us how to behave? God has been very clear about that already.
ReplyDeleteI know - the eclipse and the constellation of Virgo is coming soon too. It's the Fatimists version of the Big Bang Theory.
DeleteIt appears as Cardinal Burke has finally accepted the fact that there is something missing from the Third Secret. Numerous witnesses have seen the part we still don't know - namely the explanation of the part of the secret that has been revealed. My guess is that Cardinal Burke, smart as he is, has done his research and come to the conclusion that those who see the evidence all come to. The conclusion is that the explanation of the secret - which we don't yet know - is about apostasy at the highest levels of the Church. God Bless Cardinal Burke! He's one of the few faithful leaders left in the Church!
ReplyDeleteNothing against Card. Burke or Fr. Altier - they are both holier and smarter than I am, and like you Aloyisius, very close to holy nuns. Much of what I'm hearing in what Burke and Altier seem to be saying sounds a lot like Gruner, Ferrara, Frere Michael of the Trinity (now a Carthusian), and a host of other speculative theories on what the secret involves. Hence my confusion as to where they are coming from. My original point here is simply - to my knowledge - OL never said apostasy.
DeleteThe problem with a Cardinal saying an encyclical is not magisterial is far worse than claiming false interpretations of a private revelation as true. Know what I'm saying? On one hand, some people are saying that about major encyclicals from previous Popes. On the other hand, people are taking private revelation and using it to discredit the magisterium as lost in apostasy. When these two priests speak - or at least when they are quoted as saying this or that - out of context mind you - then ordinary people are confused.
As one good priest once told me - rebuked me actually, saying 'the Pope doesn't need you to defend him' - I'm not doing that here, but he doesn't need me or priests and religious condemning him either. Yet if one says one thing critical of Burke's manner or his complaining about this or that, his defenders flip out and condemn you as a modernist. It's like saying Burke is holier, more Catholic than the Pope, and above questioning.
Just saying. Talk amongst yourselves now.
Where has Cardinal Burke said that an encyclical is not magisterial? I read almost everything the good Cardinal says/writes and I've not seen this.
DeleteMy bad - I called an Apostolic Exhortation an encyclical - what was I thinking?! Burke said the exhortation AL wasn't magisterial. Thanks for asking - not to worry then. Using that criteria, I expect FAMILIARIS CONSORTIO isn't magisterial either. Who cares about synods and apostolic exhortations any longer.
DeleteI think the reason he is saying it isn't magisterial isn't because its an Apostolic Exhortation, but because in the document Francis himself says that he doesn't intend it to be magisterial. If Francis says it's not magisterial then it's not. No?
DeleteThat's true and makes sense. So then why the fuss? Why the need for a correction? Why the doom and gloom?
DeleteNote to self - I have to take more time when responding to comments - thanks to those who caught my mistake referring to AL as an encyclical.
ReplyDeleteIn another address, Cardinal Burke does demonstrate or links his opinion on Fatima, the apostasy, as well as the incomplete consecration of Russia to the interpretations of Frere Michel:
ReplyDelete"I now return to the third part of the Secret or Message of Fatima. Without entering into a discussion regarding whether the third part of the Secret has been fully revealed [...] Frère Michel de la Sainte Trinité, in his monumental study of the apparitions of Our Lady of Fatima, writes the following regarding the third part of the Secret or what is often called the Third Secret:
In short, the triumph of the Immaculate Heart of Mary undoubtedly refers much more to the third Secret than even the second. For the recovery of peace will be a gift from Heaven, but it is not, properly speaking, the triumph of the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Her victory is of another order, supernatural, and then temporal by addition. It will first be the victory of the Faith, which will put an end to the time of apostasy, and the great shortcomings of the Church’s pastors.[23]"
http://voiceofthefamily.com/full-text-cardinal-burkes-historic-call-for-consecration-of-russia/
He obviously disagrees with Sr. Lucia and the Holy See that the consecration was accomplished and accepted by heaven - Lucia specifically stated that the consecratiopn was accepted by heaven.