In the Catholic Church we have some – many – who believe they possess the absolute truth and they go on sullying others through slander and defamation and this is wrong. - Pope Francis
I think he could be talking about what I come across on some of the Catholic websites I sometimes read. The latest discussion over the 4 Cardinal's dubia and all the speculation and criticism that it has generated reminded me of the Pope's comment on fundamentalism - which I only quote in part here. And the photo says it all for me - I'm always reminded of the old papal court when I think of those who dislike Francis and whisper in the loggia, as it were. It's similar to my mistrust of politicians who build towers and live in palaces - Trump and Putin come to mind.
Just my impressions, BTW - like the bottom gif says, 'ain't nobody got time for that' - in other words, all this stuff is so much bigger than me and I can live without it. That said - the stuff on Catholic social media is what turns most people off and away from Catholic teaching. I think ordinary people and non Catholics only see the apparent ceaseless doctrinal-dogmatic argument as the only thing the Church has to offer.
My (rather limited) experience of preaching says that when you're short on content, you start finger pointing and building straw men to knock down. This is not to say there is not a place for that, but if it's incessant people just tune out.
Slander and defamation are, of course, wrong. But is it wrong to believe that the Church has more than hunches and ideals -- has, in fact, "absolute truth" about marriage? Not because we're such magically wonderful righteous individuals, but because the Truth Himself has revealed it to us? People mock Cardinal Burke et al., but the dubia are eminently reasonable questions when it's manifestly true that many interpret Amoris Laetitia in ways that are difficult to square with the Church's teaching. If people want the Church to change her teachings, they should come out and say so. If the teaching hasn't changed, the pope should come out and say so.
Thanks John - excellent points. I think the Bishop in Baltimore just made a statement to the effect AL doesn't change Church teaching/doctrine - but it needs to be interpreted - and that is what bishops do. Card. Burke is taking it further in the latest interview - so it sounds like a fight. He can do that.
What I'm talking about is the gossip and slander these matters generate - such as the following from an anti-Francis website:
"The issue is now closed.
The "official" Catholic media will now be strongly onside, the bishops of the world cowed; the laity - intoxicated with masturbation (well over 90%, perhaps as high as 95% of the general population), fornication, adultery, contraception, homosexual perversion, and unnatural oral and anal sex (actually onanistic sodomy which is being promoted by the Theology of the Body crowd) - solidly following Spadaro, will blindly accept the "wink-wink" at adultery from this Jesuit and his underlings in Rome.
Be assured that The "Four Cardinals" and their dubia are now a dead issue, and the promotion of adultery is proceeding at full speed.
DiNardo made what statement? O_o Your reply/post is confusing, Terry.
Anyway, remaining silent does not do Papa Francis any justice. I do not pretend to know how these things work but at least acknowledge that some folks in the Church want further clarity. I think that is important.
Di Nardo said that Amoris doesn't change doctrine - I didn't read the whole thing but he doesn't sound like Cardinal Burke, that's for sure. Not that there is anything wrong with Burke.
I appreciated John's comment above to the effect that, "Well does the Church not contain the truth?" But also your response Terry about the gossip and slander. I can appreciate both sides of the coin as to how to minister to and be welcoming to people of goodwill who come truly seeking to know what the Church teaches but who at the same time may be living lifestyles opposed to church teaching, and that are not so easy to just remove themselves from. We on the front lines of ministry truly need guidance on certain matters - how do we minister in charity and truth, and always with faithfulness to Our Lord. I pray sometimes that our adult catechumens and candidates do not ever come across some of those who look like the guy in the top picture - how dreadful.
I'm confused. I thought the Church does possess the fullness of truth. Why is Frank denying this? This is one more example of his misunderstanding of the doctrine of the faith. I pray that God grants us clarity soon.
Please comment with charity and avoid ad hominem attacks. I exercise the right to delete comments I find inappropriate. If you use your real name there is a better chance your comment will stay put.
What, exactly is he saying?
ReplyDeleteI think he could be talking about what I come across on some of the Catholic websites I sometimes read. The latest discussion over the 4 Cardinal's dubia and all the speculation and criticism that it has generated reminded me of the Pope's comment on fundamentalism - which I only quote in part here. And the photo says it all for me - I'm always reminded of the old papal court when I think of those who dislike Francis and whisper in the loggia, as it were. It's similar to my mistrust of politicians who build towers and live in palaces - Trump and Putin come to mind.
DeleteJust my impressions, BTW - like the bottom gif says, 'ain't nobody got time for that' - in other words, all this stuff is so much bigger than me and I can live without it. That said - the stuff on Catholic social media is what turns most people off and away from Catholic teaching. I think ordinary people and non Catholics only see the apparent ceaseless doctrinal-dogmatic argument as the only thing the Church has to offer.
Who knows.
DeleteMy (rather limited) experience of preaching says that when you're short on content, you start finger pointing and building straw men to knock down. This is not to say there is not a place for that, but if it's incessant people just tune out.
If you ask me(which you are not), Pope Francis' had some great insights like this which got lost in his politics.
ReplyDeleteGlad I asked. I agree wholeheartedly of course.
DeleteLong-time reader, first-time commenter.
ReplyDeleteSlander and defamation are, of course, wrong. But is it wrong to believe that the Church has more than hunches and ideals -- has, in fact, "absolute truth" about marriage? Not because we're such magically wonderful righteous individuals, but because the Truth Himself has revealed it to us? People mock Cardinal Burke et al., but the dubia are eminently reasonable questions when it's manifestly true that many interpret Amoris Laetitia in ways that are difficult to square with the Church's teaching. If people want the Church to change her teachings, they should come out and say so. If the teaching hasn't changed, the pope should come out and say so.
My two cents.
Thanks John - excellent points. I think the Bishop in Baltimore just made a statement to the effect AL doesn't change Church teaching/doctrine - but it needs to be interpreted - and that is what bishops do. Card. Burke is taking it further in the latest interview - so it sounds like a fight. He can do that.
DeleteWhat I'm talking about is the gossip and slander these matters generate - such as the following from an anti-Francis website:
"The issue is now closed.
The "official" Catholic media will now be strongly onside, the bishops of the world cowed; the laity - intoxicated with masturbation (well over 90%, perhaps as high as 95% of the general population), fornication, adultery, contraception, homosexual perversion, and unnatural oral and anal sex (actually onanistic sodomy which is being promoted by the Theology of the Body crowd) - solidly following Spadaro, will blindly accept the "wink-wink" at adultery from this Jesuit and his underlings in Rome.
Be assured that The "Four Cardinals" and their dubia are now a dead issue, and the promotion of adultery is proceeding at full speed.
Once again: we have the Pope we deserve."
That is way over the top, if not crazy.
The first sentence sb bishops - actually I think Di Nardo made the statement.
DeleteDiNardo made what statement? O_o Your reply/post is confusing, Terry.
DeleteAnyway, remaining silent does not do Papa Francis any justice. I do not pretend to know how these things work but at least acknowledge that some folks in the Church want further clarity. I think that is important.
https://cruxnow.com/church-in-the-usa/2016/11/16/dinardo-says-crazy-see-election-anti-francis-vote/
DeleteI saw this though ... so happy he was elected along with my LA Archbishop Jose Gomez.
Di Nardo said that Amoris doesn't change doctrine - I didn't read the whole thing but he doesn't sound like Cardinal Burke, that's for sure. Not that there is anything wrong with Burke.
DeleteThanks for the clarification. I read too that some folks are trying to pit him and Archbishop Gomez against our Holy Father.
DeleteI will be praying for a good outcome. May God's will be done.
I meant that their election is seen as anti Francis and he was debunking that.
DeleteI think the Pope is trying to balance human need with Divine teaching. He is a better man then me.
ReplyDeleteI appreciated John's comment above to the effect that, "Well does the Church not contain the truth?" But also your response Terry about the gossip and slander. I can appreciate both sides of the coin as to how to minister to and be welcoming to people of goodwill who come truly seeking to know what the Church teaches but who at the same time may be living lifestyles opposed to church teaching, and that are not so easy to just remove themselves from. We on the front lines of ministry truly need guidance on certain matters - how do we minister in charity and truth, and always with faithfulness to Our Lord. I pray sometimes that our adult catechumens and candidates do not ever come across some of those who look like the guy in the top picture - how dreadful.
ReplyDeleteI'm confused. I thought the Church does possess the fullness of truth. Why is Frank denying this? This is one more example of his misunderstanding of the doctrine of the faith. I pray that God grants us clarity soon.
ReplyDelete