You saw the cloud too, didn't you.
I didn't see a cloud or a portent but then, I didn't watch. I probably not even Catholic therefore. Wha?
Yes I did.
K, I'm a simpleton, no doubt. Are you fine fellows speaking of a literal cloud or a metaphoric cloud and if the latter, care to elucidate?
Speaking for myself, both. I just have an intuition of heaviness, an ominous portent of things to come...it could be bad digestion, I don't know. There just didn't seem to be the joy present I had expected...so very different from St. John Paul's beatification
OK. Thanks for explaining. I've been feeling these are great days for the Church but then I'm a convert and comparatively speaking . . .
I don't mean to sound negative. God bless you!
Owen - metaphoric cloud. These are fine days for the Church. The cloud is the damper put on the festivities - by all the confusion in the Church, all the negative stuff - it just seemed to hang over the day. I did not watch the ceremony either - just reports on news and photos online. I'm with Nazareth priest - I can't help it - can't shake the ominous sense. I'm not sure if it is the threat of war in Ukraine, the condition in the world, or the division in the Church.Cloudy.
How do we discern the reason for the division in the Church from the fact that these are fine days for the Church? Is the division entirely without a real foundation and instead simply factionalism?
Terry, nazareth priest, Thanks for the reply lads, it is appreciated. I totally hear you. It is for the reason of too much following of reports, news, punditry online that became, or that I allowed to become, a spirit-killing, soul vexation that I have withdrawn or largely withdrawn from being a part of the online world including its Catholic corner. We, Terry and I, have spoken of such here before so I won't revisit that now. :) Hopefully I am not making myself one in spirit with the foolish ostrich but since becoming Catholic in 2006 one of the least helpful things I've done is to allow The [online] Cloud of All Unknowing overshadow my life. Certainly I have benefited from being online also but the clouds, oh the clouds. Sometimes I feel I am now ignorant of things that I should not be ignorant of, after all we are challenged to be able to understand the signs of the times, but most recently I have returned to my prayer books and rosary and cards and prayer-kneeler and candles not because I am so spiritual but because I am not and I need to protect what remains against that Day.The above is not a reproach against anyone. Everyone should do what they are compelled to do and much of what is done online as Catholics is helpful - after all, every now and then I speculate about the possibilities of my own untimely return to Catholoblogoville ;-) and it may happen yet. And if I do, I better have Mr. Button as a regular reader of there will be H E double hockey sticks to pay! One reason I don't is because I am reluctant to be drawn into the cloud-crowd again. Sort of like that great line that begins, O foolish Galatians... that's me, oh foolish Galatian.Fr. nazareth priest, I receive that blessing.Terry, we both know, I love your blog, period. God bless you both.
Dear lonliest,You didn't mention me by name but your comment appears to address the comment I made; key phrase; fine days [or as I said, great days] for the Church.I have hope. I have faith. The gates of hell with not pervade and all that. There has never not been division and factionalism in the Church; a.k.a. Book of Acts, 2000+ years ago. Had to take my focus back to the core, to the "foundation" and off the factions and portents. Some may discern that this action has probably skewed my vision. Fine. Great. :-)
Hi Owen,It was actually in reference to Terry's comment, but it's okay.That there was always division in the Church may be true, but that doesn't address how I should understand or react to the division now. The present division for me is, at root, a crisis of confusion. I do think that the level of confusion at least is at a level that the Church has not experienced in quite some time. The confusion is compounded by the fact that the hope and faith you mention is, in part, called into question by the division: not because it means the hope and faith are / were in vain, but because what is means to be faithful or hopeful is now not so clear to me as it once was. What is even the Truth is not so clear to me as it once was. It is a terrible interior crisis of confusion that I have not experienced since the time when I was unsure whether I believed in Christ at all, let alone that He founded a Church. I really can't speak to all of history, nor even Church history. I can say that in my time as a convinced Catholic (which began probably nine years ago), I have not been disoriented by anything close to what I have experienced since the election of Pope Francis. Often, I do not understand what he says or does. It does not strike a chord with my Catholic sensibilities, if you will.
Thanks Loneliest,It gets confusing when people don't use names in a combox :) I'll leave you to Terry because I would think that the way we deal with perceived problems is essentially the same as it has always been for the baptized-faithful in regard to (the historically present) alleged division questions and because I don't share your disorientation in regard the to the Holy Father.I appreciate you are asking a sincere question sincerely. I won't be able to continue the discussion in a helpful way for you so now,heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeere's Terry.
I should add, Loneliest, I am a convert, 8 years, and formerly a Protestant minister of 18 years and before that an evangelical layperson for five years and before that a plain old heathen. So, with that may skew my view of Pope Francis, with whom I am at peace and experience non of the trauma you have and in fact find I have become more settled in Church and Christ since his placement by the Holy Spirit - which is not, that's not a detraction of Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI. I'm just saying perhaps my view comes from my personal post-evangelical-Protestant sensibilities but then, perhaps I'm not as Catholic as I think. I'm sure some think that but I don't care so much about whatever whomever thinks of me anymore, saving Christ and his/our Mother.Probably poorly expressed but I felt where I left my reply above might be a bit short.God bless you brother, or sister; Loneliest-Place-In-Rome being a non gender specific handle ;-)
Thank you, Owen. God bless you.
I have no problem with Pope Francis.Neither do I have any interest in continuing this conversation.I'm busy working on a project.
I'm not sure why you made it about you having no problem with Pope Francis as that isn't the question. If there is division in the Church and yet these are fine days for the Church, then what is the source of the division, what is it about? How do we reconcile the fine-ness of these days with the division?
I thought Benedict looked happy and relaxed. Old, yes - he is 87 after all!
I've aged considerably as well. What?
"What Nazareth-Priest" said, but it's great to see our Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI. He seems to me like a true, real and very paternal Spiritual Father!!...
i think he looks a little better than he did just after he abdicated
He looks great. I see sweetness in his face and smile. He looks happy and relaxed while he ages gracefully sitting at the foot of the cross devoted to his Lord while interceding for Papa Francis, our beloved Church, and the rest of us.Thank you Lord Jesus for such a gift.
Cloudy mood? How? I saw a video with people dancing and singing in the Saint Peter square at 3 a.m before the canonization. My Greek-Catholic bishop told us (his flock) that people were joyful and many kept vigil, praying, singing and dancing for a good part of the night...
Please comment with charity and avoid ad hominem attacks. I exercise the right to delete comments I find inappropriate. If you use your real name there is a better chance your comment will stay put.