From In Statu Vitae blog.
Before I start to describe all that I recall regarding the event, in the interest of transparency I have to say that I would place my own views in closer proximity to the Voris camp than to the Shea camp, although I do greatly respect and enjoy reading/watching both gentlemen's work.
Since Mr. Shea was arguing in the affirmative on the topic, he gave his opening arguments. The mic was then passed to Mr. Voris, and this is where things quickly became a bit heated. In his first turn or two at the microphone, Michael Voris focused less on the substance of the debate, but instead started referencing quotes that Mark Shea had written on his blog regarding ChurchMilitant.tv, Michael Voris, Michael Voris's followers, etc. Michael Voris clearly came to the debate with an ax to grind. - Read the full account here.
Sounds to me as if it was a nice diversion for local Church Militants.
Update: Mark Shea also posted on the debate here.
Totally decent,
I must say!
They ought to be ashamed of themselves.
ReplyDeleteHaha! Why?
ReplyDelete"Have nothing to do with foolish, ignorant controversies; you know that they breed quarrels. And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil."
DeleteThanks Thom. Excellent.
ReplyDeleteWhere do you get those pictures? They kill me.
ReplyDeleteThom: AOTM is what it is. Part debate. Part mud wrassle. For my part, I was there to argue the question. My two departures from that were a) to defend myself against the charge that I was somehow evil for speaking well of Perry Lorenzo (and a couple of other outrageous misreading of things I had said) and b) to point out that if Voris means to admonish sinners, the way *not* to do it is to publish the personal incomes of innocent people, declare them "excessive" without examination and smear them as money-grubbing whores and gutless cowards in the pay of the Church of Nice. The rest of the time was spent with my boring reiteration of the affirmative since, you know, that's what the Church teaches. I actually tried pretty hard *not* to make it about Voris' stuff. My principle argument beyond the resolution was that we are seeing the emergence of two visions of the Church. The Voris vision of the Church as bunker and the Pope as the guy who is supposed to protect the pure from the riff raff, and the Francis vision of a Church that leaves the bunker to go out into the highways and byways and bring as many of the riff raff in as possible. The spectacle of a conservative Catholic blogosphere talking as though Francis is a threat and very possibly a heretic is a judgment, not on Francis, but on that subculture. Where we should be listening, we are presuming to sit in judgment. It's going to be a *very* long pontificate for Voris and his audience.
ReplyDeleteMark, please don't take what I said as an insult. I truly didn't intend it to be that.
DeleteI *do* find the idea of an "argument club" at a church to be utterly repulsive and anti-Gospel.
I appreciate what you do to present a counter to Voris' opinion about the Church. I just loathe the fact that it had to happen at a beer swill in a church basement.
What a beautiful statement, showing true love and concern for souls instead of insistence on being right: "I thank God that I am not like that Church of Nice." I am a recovering "Vorisite", so this debate was of particular interest to me. I give all the credit to our Blessed Mother for showing me that there is a better way: the way of humility and love, so wonderfully articulated by Pope Francis, if only people are willing to listen.
DeleteThom seems to represent the feminine side of the Church very well. I guess he doesn't know that the apostles and church fathers engaged in debates, and that it is a tradition as venerable as any in the church.
DeleteI quoted St. Paul. I guess I'm in good company.
DeleteYou quoted selectively. I guess you don't know all the other places in the epistles, the ones where St. Paul gets all "logical" and "argumentative" and all that scary stuff.
DeleteDon't you know that there is a difference between "debate" and "arguing?" Or "quarreling?" Certain Paul recognized a difference.
Delete*certainly
DeleteYes; "quarreling" is what you accuse the other side of doing once they begin to beat you in the debate and you have nothing left.
Delete"The spectacle of a conservative Catholic blogosphere talking as though Francis is a threat and very possibly a heretic is a judgment, not on Francis, but on that subculture. Where we should be listening, we are presuming to sit in judgment. It's going to be a *very* long pontificate for Voris and his audience."
DeleteI'm in with the riff raff. ^^ I support you, Mr. Shea and pray for you.
After so much vinegar spewing from so many of the toxic blogs, I had to retire as I could no longer remain charitable...their fruits are laid bare and that's enough to stay away.
Let's keep praying!
Mr. Shea:
DeleteMy best sense is that there is a real misunderstanding in the Church (and I'm sure this has been the case since Monday after Easter) about what being "missionary" means. My observation arose when I read your comment that Mr. Voris has a "bunker" mentality. That seems quite inconsistent with his whole approach...indeed...while some people may feel very uncomfortable with the directness of Mr. Voris, and I am sure sometimes his offenses (we all make them), it seems a gross misunderstanding to label Mr. Voris as having a "bunker" mentality...indeed...his whole approach is to critique the Church for being passive and defensive...in essence...for being "un-missionary." Hence - Voris emphasis on the 3rd part of the Church - the Church Militant. And conversely, as a 57 yr old Catholic, the prevailing Church experience of my life, which has a broader vista than most, as my work career caused my to move across 7 different states and 10 diocese, is a Church primarily in the mode of retreat spiritually, intellectually and culturally. And that Church is not the church militant of Mr. Voris, but the Church in situ that he is critiquing. In other words, it seems that the establishment elements and institutions of the Church (national conferences, diocese, parishes, colleges, schools, etc) are in the bunker, and its not a missionary bunker.
Once again, Mark Shea mischaracterizes Michael Voris's work. To claim that his work is "un-missionary" is as far from the truth as could be--he has logged thousands of miles and hours traveling all over the world to bring the good news of the Faith to as many as will hear--and he has received hundreds of notes of thanks from people who have either returned to the Faith or converted because of his apostolate.
DeleteSince Michael is not here to defend himself, I will post a link to his apostolate's website so people can see for themselves the sort of work he does:
http://churchmilitant.tv/talks
Or would you prefer that nobody challenge Voris and attempt to give his audience an alternative to what he declares to be the True and Only Orthodoxy?
ReplyDelete*see above
DeleteThanks Mark - well said.
ReplyDeleteI find all the photos on Google - I use search phrases such as 'dissidents forcibly removed' or 'crazed fanatics arrested'.
Haha! I have fun.
me wonders what you typed in for a pic of badger the other day that gave you the groundhog day photo.. that made the day, too funny
DeleteThat was the actual picture I sent to him as I arrived.
Deletelol
DeleteHeavens, before you know it himself may have to post here now that Mark has. :)
ReplyDelete"a recovering "Vorisite"" - nearly spewed Ovaltine on the screen. Golly, I can relate.
"The mic was then passed to Mr. Voris, and this is where things quickly became a bit heated" Snicker. I bet "bit| is delicately understated.
"The spectacle of a conservative Catholic blogosphere talking as though Francis is a threat and very possibly a heretic is a judgment.." on the $ Mr. Shea and but one reason while I left the tradosphere just as my toe was getting wet.
P.S. Terry, love the new header.
Curious about the old man in the photo of Censor Librorum comments? It is Jean de Mayol de Lupe:
ReplyDeletehttp://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_de_Mayol_de_Lup%25C3%25A9&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dmayol%2Bde%2Blupe%26biw%3D1383%26bih%3D770
Thank you for that, Terry. Who knew I was speaking with a Nazi.
Deletede Lupe was a great and courageous defender of his country (and Europe) against the invading Bolshevik hordes. Aside from that, it appears that the *point* we were discussing was conceded to me. Thanks.
DeleteJust reading about him. Fascinating. Said that during he Great War he, "...risked his life many times giving absolution to the dying."
DeleteThanks for the history lesson!
That's a nice spin on your man, but anyone who knows that era and what was going on, knows it is different. I think its interesting that an apparent Voris supporter would idolize this guy, who got in bed with the Nazis' to make Europe "safe," for Catholics, (which would be threatend by the Bolshevik's that much is true) be damned what the Nazis were up to or were going to eventually do to the Church. He was put his ideas of "protecting Catholicism" above common sense and even Church morality.
Delete"The Voris vision of the Church as bunker and the Pope as the guy who is supposed to protect the pure from the riff raff, and the Francis vision of a Church that leaves the bunker to go out into the highways and byways and bring as many of the riff raff in as possible."
ReplyDeleteWow, you really nailed the ideas behind that "sub-cultures," way of thinking. Its always funny, the most hard lined people are the ones always so sure of their own salvation, of which none of us can be assured, and that those people will have to be sharing eternity(if that and all of us are so lucky)with the rif-raf. Or maybe that is their hell?
"The spectacle of a conservative Catholic blogosphere talking as though Francis is a threat and very possibly a heretic ." that quote makes me so sad, and very, very angry.
Censor Librorum, like the "feminine," jab at Thom, and acting like he is a silly little queen not understanding logic. And people like you wonder why they aren't listened to, even when they have something worth listening to.
i think its fair to say that before we see the debate for ourselves it seems Mr. Shea prevailed (good for him btw). I would agree with Matt though that the debate probably should have been preempted by the airing of grievances (someone mentioned it not be festivous, that was a great reference). I still dont see why its an either or proposition, both serve the church in the way they know how and do a fine job. Cant wait for the video!
ReplyDelete+JMJ+
Censor - What 'point' was conceded? You quarrel with yourself here.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteIt is ridiculous to cite St. Paul -- one of the most contentious, argumentative Saints in the entire calendar -- as a witness against debate. That was my point, and I think any who know the Epistles well will concede as much.
DeleteYou took the interesting tack of hunting down my avatar (!) and condemning a great priest as a "nazi," just to avoid grappling with the issue at hand. Nice work, very Shea-like of you.
What about a rematch? They could discuss the propriety of Pope Francis responding to the gays.
ReplyDeleteWhat?
A bit off topic but at the same time not...
ReplyDeleteI have been thinking about the divide that exists in the Church and has always existed but am more aware of it today than ever before...I found this quote from the Prelate of Opus Dei to be right on:
"To present the Church as made up of divided groups would go against communion, and show an outlook lacking in faith. We are all in the barque of Peter to serve, in a unity of hearts and wills, each according to their mission and charism."
Here is the rest of the interview should anyone care to read it:
http://www.opusdei.us/art.php?p=55526
Thom - I'm not sure if you realize it, but I was actually directing my comment to Mark Shea.
ReplyDeleteI assumed as much.
DeleteMr. S's critique of Mr. V is off the mark - one can critique V...but not for a "bunker mentality." V is and wants the Church to be on offense in the spiritual war...V is critiquing the Church for being in the "Sadducee bunker."
ReplyDelete