Tuesday, July 26, 2011

Going after Michael Voris


When he ventures out of his territory...  hiss, spit, growl!

Michael Voris must really annoy a lot of people.  I'm not a frequent viewer or follower of his, nor do I always agree with him on everything when I do watch him or read something he said, although many times I think he really nails several issues - but so do other online personalities from time to time.  I'm beholden to no one online, although I have to admit I like Voris' unpolished, hit the nail on the head - call a spade a spade, in your face style.  Sometimes he's over the top - but who isn't?  He's not on my enemies list - actually I don't have such a list - but it appears other online personalities just might, and it sure looks as if Michael's name is on it.  The latest tempest in a tea pot seems to be the fact Michael Voris will be at World Youth Day, operating out of a hotel room, despite the fact he is not an authorized speaker at the event.  Sounds dirty and creepy and underhanded doesn't it?
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I don't think it is however.  Not according to a spokesman for RealCatholicTV who commented on a Patrick Madrid post which stated:

"Michael Voris, “Real Catholic TV” and “No Bull in Madrid” did not receive such endorsement from their Bishop or Episcopal Conference.  Michael Voris, “Real Catholic TV” and the program “No Bull in Madrid” are not accredited to or recognized by World Youth Day 2011."
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That post moved RealCatholicTV's Marc Brammer to come to the defense of Voris and company, explaining:
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"Nothing RealCatholicTV.com has ever done has been done with “approval” owing to the fact that “approval” is not required. The laity, or their efforts, do not operate as ecclesial bodies or functionaries (e.g., prayer groups and Catholic Bible Studies do not need “permission” or “approval” before commencing activities) nor is there any real mechanism in place for obtaining such approval.
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For instance, not a single Vortex episode (nearly 800 to date) has ever been “approved” in the sense of receiving some official endorsement by the Church, nor are they required to be “approved” unless there is a claim to be speaking for the Church (which there is not). 
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Our efforts in Madrid are solely our own undertaking, as is everything that we do. We consult greatly and regularly with various clergy and religious in many of our endeavors, and we are very happy for their support.
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The work of the laity, however, is NOT the work of the clergy. - Source.
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It's a strange situation - liberal and conservative Catholic pundits seem to be gunning for Voris.  The Internet is such a weird place - it's kind of political and sectarian and - vicious.  Like cats spraying to protect their territory.  Cat fight!
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UPDATE:  CNA has the story now, saying: They (Voris and RealCatholic) are “not in any way recognized or approved” by the official event. The Pontifical Council for the Laity selects and invites only bishops from around the world to conduct catechesis sessions at World Youth Day, the statement explained.   It appears the bishops are distancing themselves as far away as possible from Michael Voris and his apostolate...
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"There had been “some confusion” about Voris’ affiliation with World Youth Day, organizers said, further noting that “Real Catholic TV” and Michael Voris’ catechetical session “No Bull in Madrid” have not received endorsements from the group’s local bishop—Archbishop Allen Vigneron of Detroit—or the U.S. bishops’ conference. "
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Maybe Cardinal Burke could rescue this situation as well?
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Disclaimer:  No poodles were harmed in this post.

51 comments:

  1. I like Michael Voris. I don't always agree 100% with him, but I like him. I also like that someone out there is making the boys at the top a little nervous. I think someone from within the camp should. By the way, is he married? I can't tell if he wears a wedding ban or a class/fraternity ring.

    Little known fact, Mr Voris hosted a popular variety show back in the late 60s. It's true. See for yourself: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GQ8YfYyFwM

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  3. Many Catholics, both Novus Ordo and especially Trads, have been watching Beck, Limberger, Hannity, et. al., and are now spewing hatred from having absorbed so much bull crap from these guys it's pathetic.

    Mr. Voris is an antidote for all that filth wrapped in the flag and patriotism.

    I personally don't care to listen to his snake oil show, but it's like watching a fat girl dance.

    Every once in a while you take a look.

    *

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  4. I don't know about snakes and oil but I can tell you this: like Voris' show or dislike him... the way he is treated tells me he is probably on to something.

    So much space online is spent talking about the guy. People that are crazy and non-sensicle don't get that much coverage. The people that do usually are saying something that others don't want them to.

    This situation is like Terry puts it: a tempest in a tea pot... the WYD Org. Comm. went out of there way to state the obvious and singled Voris out. This tells me someone with some influence with them wanted to scare folks away from his talks. What will be interesting is to hear the talks and see what they are so afraid of...

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  5. St. Michael, I'd have thought you likeed Voris. Anyway....

    I think it's perfectly fine and OK for Voris to show up in Madrid and do his own thing. So I agree about the tempest in a teapot thing as far as his presence there.

    What I'm not fine with is the potential aspects of his usual message as applied to young, developing Catholics.

    Let's start with his disdain for the U.S. bishops. Yes, many of them are poison. Yes, there are problems. But young Catholics should be concerned with one thing only: Obeying and respecting them. Voris' track record shows he isn't tops in either of those categories.

    Next: Voris' disdain for the Novus Ordo. (Note, I met Voris at a Novus Ordo mass, but it was being said all in Latin, so it must have been OK.) I don't have a list of quotes and evidence on this, but let's face it, we all know how he feels about the subject. Since the masses at WYD will all be Novus Ordo masses, it seems pretty underhanded to be espousing views against an accepted and valid form of liturgy. And espousing such things to young kids and young adults.

    Likewise, his disdain for most things post-Vatican II, which is, for the most part, the current Catholic experience for billions of Catholics. From that perspective, Voris would surely dissaprove of almost everything going on at WYD. From the point of view of Voris and those who agree with him, the huge group masses being held at WYD will automatically be a liturgical abuse-fest. The kids there will be wearing tank tops and shorts and flip-flops, wearing backpacks and waving flags. I think you all get the picture, yes? Voris' message is in distinct contrast to all of this, which means his message is in opposition to what Rome wants and approves of for this particular event.

    So, in sum, Voris espouses views that are diametrically opposed to the purpose and plan of WYD. Maybe he's not going to promote or espouse those views while there? Perhaps. But if not, what IS he going to there to do? Because whatever his mission is, it's still all going to boil down to: Vatican II is bad and ruined the church, the Novus Ordo is bad and ruined the church, and your bishops are bad are ruining the church.

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  6. Because whatever his mission is, it's still all going to boil down to: Vatican II is bad and ruined the church, the Novus Ordo is bad and ruined the church, and your bishops are bad are ruining the church.

    Why not just send an email to RealCatholicTV and ask directly what his intentions are? Then instead of making these claims, you can get the answer straight from their people. Here's their email address: simonrafe@realcatholictv.com. Simon's a great guy, and responds to all emails.

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  7. MR. SHEA, never short on words, HAD THIS TO SAY ABOUT MR. VORIS,in the com box, at Mr. Madrid's site, on July 25, 2011 at 11:11 PM:


    "MY ISSUES WITH VORIS ARE SIMPLE, HE IS AN AN UNACCOUNTABLE DEMAGOGUE GIVEN TO FOMENTING ANGER AND REBELLION AGAINST THE BISHOPS, GIVEN TO POLARIZING CATHOLICS NEEDLESSLY, and given issuing his private opinions in which which suggest that disagreement with him on matters of prudence or aesthetics constitutes disagreement with Holy Church. I typically have ignored him over the years, but after receiving one too many emails from an adoring fan who believes his ever word to fall from Mount Sinai, I emitted a loud groan of frustration. I now hope to return to ignoring him".

    The very soul of charity, huh?

    Kyrie Eleison...

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  8. Larry, since you're friends with Voris or have hung out with him or whatever, I understand that you're trying to defend his good name.

    However, why do *I* have to ask what their actual mission is there? If they're on top of things enough to issue an official statement about their involvement at WYD, why can't they issue an official statement or have a link up that explains their mission? I mean, don't they want people to come to their No Bull In Madrid?

    I am NOT accusing them of secrecy. But if you're gonna have your teenager come in contact with Voris' group, shouldn't there be more information available as to what that might entail?

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  9. "...St. Michael, I'd have thought you liked Voris. Anyway..."

    Madam,

    please go to my blogs and also my web site that you may come to understand my Roman Catholicism.

    "Go, and teach all Nations".

    I have expressed my opinion many times that I do not engage in the gossip of women, as does Mr. Voris and his pals.

    As a macho mexican, cat-chat about the boogeyman is something I do not engage in.

    Reading this blog and discussing relevant issues of the day is manly, and can bear fruit.

    Catechism happens here, and many issues people are afraid of speaking are dealt with openly, and honestly, without ridiculing the people or things being discussed.

    I am certain Mr. Voris and the 'fat girls' of his blog earn a good living at what they do.

    While I do not, will not, and have not endorsed him, I don't begrudge him and company from making a quick buck at the misery of others.

    *

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  10. Anonymous1:16 PM

    This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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  11. Mrs. Charlotte,

    I viewed your blogs and found them edifying.

    If you do not mind, I will recommend them to some formerly fallen women I know that need to adjust their focus.

    God bless our righteous women.

    God bless them and their families.

    I said the three Hail Marys for your friend Mr. reilly.

    May God rest his soul.

    *

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  12. I can't have a crush on Larry D because I'm married, but I'd like to believe that he does indeed look like his icon picture. We need more good-looking Catholic men out there standing up for the truth.

    Larry thinks I'm against him, but I'm not. I just think he's in a really over-zealous phase, that's all.

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  13. I like Mark Shea. He has a right to his opinion.

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  14. Sorry Anonymous - no anonymous comments like that allowed here.

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  15. This gives a little background on possible reasons for the animus felt by some liberally inclined Bishops and bloggers toward Voris:

    www.renewamerica.com/columns/abbott/110408

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  16. My feeling is, "Michael who??" I really do know who he is, but I've never watched him. Just like I've never watched Glen Beck, Sean Hannity, or Rachel Maddows. For pretty much the same reason. That stuff puts me in a bad mood and I've got way better things to do with my time.
    Terry, that cat in the picture looks so much like one of mine. My two are brother and sister, and they fight a lot. But they quit when I get out the squirt bottle.

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  17. Cats hate squirt bottles - they work though. Char might need to get one.

    I never listen to talk radio or watch any of those people either - I only watch Michael Voris when someone links to him.

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  18. "...it's kind of political and sectarian and - vicious."

    Kind of?!

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  19. @Charlotte

    a) I'm sure that Mr Voris does not have anything against the Novus Ordo when it is properly offered, however it is posible that like my good self he thinks that th Novus Ordo lacks something present in the EF e.g. the prayers at the foot of the altar.

    b)in the One True Faith episode "Vatican II and the Laity" Mr Voris criticises the implimentation and distorition of V II, not the actual documents themselves.

    c) As far as I know Mr Voris and Realcatholic TV have been obideant to any Bishop in whose diocese they had been booked to speak on Church property, recently in the Diocese of Scranton they were asked not to speak on Church Property and promptly moved the event across the road.

    D) They have been endorsed by Cardinal Burke (when he was Archbishop of St Louis) and Bishop Fabien Bruskewitz of the Diocese of Nebraska

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  20. Charlotte - that is indeed my picture. It's a rejected passport photo because of reflection on the glasses.

    My comment really isn't coming to Michael's defense - it's just common sense. To get the info you want, go to the source to get it. I mean, why should you believe me anyway? It's not like you have a crush on me or anything. :-) (that was meant to be a cute comment)

    And I don't think you're against me - I just believe that anyone who has an issue with someone else, in order to get clarification, should be able to directly approach the other person and seek said clarification. It's what adults do.

    Oh - I wouldn't define my phase as "over-zealous". That implies a lack of control. I will defend the Church and Her teachings in season and out of season.

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  21. Terry,
    Squirt bottle already in full use!

    Maria, one does not have to be a liberal to dislike Voris. Many conservatives do. Actually more conservatives dislike him than liberals. But I see the point you are trying to make.

    Just Another Mad Catholic,
    What you say about Voris may or may not be true. The obedience to the bishops thing I'm going to still disagree with you on-and I'm sorry that I don't have time to do my homework - but I am 100% positive there are legit criticisms against him on this subject. Nonetheless, people take away ideas and concepts from words. People sum things up. And after listening to Voris' videos, I feel confident that many, many people take away the ideas and concepts that I have attributed to him. I'm obviously very much not alone in this assessment.

    word verification: flame idea

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  22. To set up a competing, alternate event for teaching beside WYD is abhorent. It's really quite Protestant, if you think about it: I don't like what the Bishops say, so in protest I'll have my own party. Come to my party. We have grape AND lime Kool-Aid. It's like that episode of The Office when they have competing office Christmas parties.

    If I were a Bishop participating in organizing WYD, I'd be sure to call out anyone publicly who was trying to undermine it. Period.

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  23. Thom, SFO,

    If it was a bunch of crackpot liberal heretics sponsoring talks alongside WYD, you'd be all for it. So give us a break.

    Of course, those kinds of talks never get banned. That would be "insensitive."

    Mr Voris isn't setting up a parallel WYD, he is holding talks on the faith from a different perspective than all the ya-rah, let's-put-our-heads-in-the-sand-while-the-Church-goes-to-hell, "Problem? We don't have any problems in the Church" (thank you Archbishop Dolan) banter goes on across the street.

    Obviously you've never been to a WYD or you would know that every jackass in Christendom sets up a tent to sell something there. It is nothing but a giant circus. Why not allow Voris to do his thing?

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  24. I don't appreciate your putting words in my mouth or questioning my intent. Don't do that, ever.

    Selling Catholic Kitsch isn't the same thing as undermining the very Bishops that one excoriates in every video one makes and distributes.

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  25. Really? So why didn't the Vatican issue a press release last year when the Pope visited Spain, denouncing the staged gay kiss-in and protest against the Church's position on same sex marriage and lifestyle?

    I'm sure most in attendance were baptized Catholics, speaking out AGAINST Church teaching, rather than Mr Voris, pointing out the failures and hypocrisies within the Church today.

    This is one of them.

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  26. The organizers of the "kiss in" didn't represent themselves as reform theologians. Not the same sort of thing at all, and your bringing up of sexual things doesn't make it so.

    If Voris were Fr. McBrien, you would be having an absolute sh1tfit.

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  27. Anonymous6:28 PM

    Looks to me that the No Bull in Madrid isn't about the bishops - but about sexual morality.

    The talks are happening after the official WYD stuff is over for the day.

    As Voris says in the CNA piece - he's not ever claimed to be officially associated with WYD.

    I read on another blog post - well - in the comments - can't remember which one - that someone claimed to have friends in the USCCB who are just as surprised about this as Voris. It is coming from the WYD organizers and the Pontifical Council for the Laity.

    On Voris and Traditionalism - if you read the AngelQueen forums (the only Trad forum I read) - you will see that some there hold him in disdain and others are hopeful that this kerfuffle will lead him to see the light and reject (as they put it) the Conciliar Church and embrace Tradition. I don't know where he stands on all that. He is tight with the little Traddy ex-pat crowd in Rome - I can see that from their blogs and such. But I don't know.

    In this research - btw - I found out that Coleen Hammond (Dressing with Dignity) is SSPX. Learn something new everyday.

    Lee

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  28. "If Voris were Fr. McBrien, you would be having an absolute sh1tfit."

    Not really. That type of Catholicism is so passé. Heresy doesn't scare me or frighten me, sadden, yes, but frighten never.

    Our Lord warned that the wheat would grow up right along with the chaff and that He would root the latter out in the end.

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  29. Next time do your best to weigh the import of my words, and not what you assume my character or motivation to be. I can't assuage your private hangups, and I won't be your proverbial punching bag. That's what therapy is for.

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  30. Smile, Thom. We love you;-)

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  31. Love is so very subjective. Grin.

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  32. Thom, You are correct and I apologize. I shouldn't try to guess what is in a man's heart (or a woman's for that matter).

    Mea culpa

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  33. Anonymous7:19 PM

    Blogger Terry Nelson said...
    Sorry Anonymous - no anonymous comments like that allowed here.

    2:50 PM

    crushblocker!

    ReplyDelete
  34. That looks like my kitty too....he must have snuck out..

    But he would NEVER pee like that!!

    Would he??

    I always wonder what he's up to when I'm away at work....

    Sara

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  35. It seems Detroit has had some problems. This sheds some light on the situation w/ Voris and the Bishops:

    www.renewamerica.com/columns/abbott/110408

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  36. the real culprit in this situation is the Archdiocese of Detroit, where RealCatholicTV.com is located. The archdiocese has been trying to quietly destroy Voris' credibility for some time. In fact, one archdiocesan official reportedly referred to Voris as a "nutcase." Why, you ask? The article below, provided to me by a reliable source who's familiar with the archdiocese, should give you a big hint. (I've done some editing for prudential reasons.)

    www.renewamerica.com/columns/abbott/110408

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  37. Anonymous10:37 PM

    "Nothing RealCatholicTV.com has ever done has been done with “approval” owing to the fact that “approval” is not required. The laity, or their efforts, do not operate as ecclesial bodies or functionaries (e.g., prayer groups and Catholic Bible Studies do not need “permission” or “approval” before commencing activities) nor is there any real mechanism in place for obtaining such approval.
    .
    For instance, not a single Vortex episode (nearly 800 to date) has ever been “approved” in the sense of receiving some official endorsement by the Church, nor are they required to be “approved” unless there is a claim to be speaking for the Church (which there is not). "

    Marc Bremmar and Canon Law appear to differ. Remember, they are called Real Catholic.

    According to Canon Law

    Under the Heading of Association of the Faithful
    Can. 300 No association may call itself 'catholic' except with the consent of the competent ecclesiastical authority, in accordance with can. 312.

    Can. 301 §1 It is for the competent ecclesiastical authority alone to establish associations of Christ's faithful which intend to impart Christian teaching in the name of the Church, or to promote public worship, or which are directed to other ends whose pursuit is of its nature reserved to the same ecclesiastical authority.

    Maybe Card Burke should get involved.

    Maria

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  38. Maria

    10:37 PM



    THE ANONYMOUS COMMENT ABOVE IS SIGNED BY "MARIA". NOT the MARIA WHO USUALLY COMMENTS HERE.

    I AM A LITTLE CONFUSED, TERRY, I THOUGHT ANONYMOUS COMMENTS WERE NOT ALLOWED.

    I AM THE MARIA WHO POSTED THE LINK TO www.renewamerica.com/columns/abbott/110408

    THIS LINK TAKES YOU TO THE ARTICLE TITLED: MICHAEL VORIS PERSECUTED; SINGIN' THE BLUES IN MOTOWN

    By Matt C. Abbott

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  39. Maria - some anonymous get through at my discretion. The maria you refer to as anonymous signed her name to her comment - so she's not really anonymous - she just used the anonymous sign in. I don't have moderation on nor do I alwyas get email notification of new comments - I edit when I come online.

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  40. So, I wonder who our NEW "Maria" is, don't you?

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  41. I hate them all bc they are more popular than me. Isn't that what it really boils down to?

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  42. "...I hate them all bc they are more popular than me..."

    Mr. Voris provides information to those that have been de-catechized, and dumbed down to the point they are no longer Catholic.

    Even many of those that claim to be Traditional Catholics are part of this group.

    It is extremely difficult to properly catechize people both Traditionalists and Modernists; Mr. Voris and company are just the beginning of the New Evangelization; old time catechism and beliefs will spring forth from the true Springtime.

    Mr. Voris also brings to light many things most people miss because they become star struck by popular Priests or Bishops.

    Divine Faith is like the light of the sun that illumines all things, and when human reason, which in comparison is like a puny light bulb, loses its light in the divine radiance of Faith, then truth reigns, for "in Thy Light we see light" (Psalm 36:9~.

    Mr. Voris is helping the Light shine through upon us.

    God bless him.

    *

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  43. "Mr. Voris also brings to light many things most people miss because they become star struck by popular Priests or Bishops."

    Pablo - you nailed it! You are absolutely correct - thank you.

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  44. But what about those who are star-struck over Voris?

    I guarantee 100% that if for some reason Voris got caught up in some scandal ala Corapi or Eutuener, or whoever, legions of people would come to his defense, claiming his innocence by way of his otherwise orthodox views. Ditto for Father Z.

    Voris already has such a fan base, it cannot be denied.

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  45. Char - hopefully people have learned their lesson. I don't see Voris as that charismatic. Like Chris West, I think people understand that lay people have no special 'do not harm my annointed' prohibitions/protections that a couple of ordained like to use to quell criticism.

    I'd throw Voris under the bus in a New York minute. LOL! Just kidding - but he's just a guy with a website.

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  46. I'm told if he cut his hair he would lose all his strength.

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  47. I always wondered where obedience played into all this attention mongering.

    It doesn't.

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  48. If there is one thing that was confirmed, for me, through the abuse crisis and all the scandals over the past decade is that priests and bishops DO NOT ALWAYS HAVE OUR BEST INTERESTS AT HEART. And by best interests, I mean, the salvation of souls.

    We need faithful Catholic laymen and women to speak out against the problems in the Church in our age. Michael Voris has not been disobedient--just to be clear--Michael Voris has not been disobedient.

    I think what makes people uncomfortable the most is the continuous airing of our dirty laundry that we read on all sorts of blogs and in Catholic periodicals. It is by no means a pleasant task to state it, read or hear of it, but it must be done, along with prayer, self-sacrifice and charity if we are ever going to root some of these problems out.

    I used to be a letter writer in my late teens and 20s regarding liturgical abuses I saw in my parish, among other issues. I would get cute, pat little responses that did nothing but anger me. I finally decided to just pray and how God listened! In one case, a community that seemed completely off the rails did a 180 in less than 10 years! God is faithful!

    Remember the scandal in the 90s when Michael Davies hid in wait to nab Cardinal Ratzinger on the street and demanded liturgical changes? That seemed so shocking then, but rumor had it that Ratzinger was not aware how dire the situation had become in the US and that meeting quite possibly brought some of the good changes we see now. So, yes prayer is important, but blogs, various Catholic web TVs and articles are also necessary all of which seem to be bringing issues to light and possibly effecting good change. We need both.

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  49. Oh and one last thing, regarding, "Mr. Voris provides information to those that have been de-catechized, and dumbed down to the point they are no longer Catholic"
    Having conducted my own non-scientific poll over the last 20 years on what the average American Catholic knows about his faith, I would say that the person you describe would include about 95% of American Catholics OR MORE--and I'm not kidding!

    Questions included in my poll often include:

    1) What is the Trinity?
    General Answer: F, S, HS

    2) Well, who is God?
    Ans: God, is...God...lol

    3) Is Jesus God?
    Ans: (Curve ball) No. He is God's son.

    4) But, Jesus isn't God?
    Ans: (thinking) No, no...he is God's son...I think...I don't know...

    5) What is Transubstantiation?
    Ans: WHAT??? Lol...

    6) What happens at Mass?
    Ans: We come together to pray and have readings and take communion.

    7) What is communion?
    Ans: Its a symbol of Jesus' body and blood. (I would say about a quarter know about the actual presence.)

    9) Do you go to confession?
    Ans: (Range from not since 1st grade to once a year when parish has penance service)

    10. I know you...live with your bf, boast about your porn collection, use bc, do you discuss that in confession?
    Ans: Are you nuts? NO!

    11. Do you know what mortal sin is?
    Ans: Oh, please...the Church doesn't teach that anymore!

    I could go on but you get the idea. These answers were heard over and over via conversations I have had at in school, at parties, in the workplace, having drinks, etc...

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