This surely does seem wrong. But I am immediately wary when I see the source of this - Rorate Caeli. They are mlitant traditionalists. They feel the only real Mass is the TLM, and have no qualms about attacking Church hierarchy, including the Pope. When Pope Francis was elected, they called it the worst choice possible.
In this article, they write, " Does this not accurately reflect how most mainstream Catholics treat Sunday Mass, if they even go, where everyone is too busy to devote even one hour to hear Mass with respect, reverence and piety?" In other words, if you don't think like they do, you are at best a borderline Catholic with one foot out the door and the other on a banana peel.
No, I don't support poolside Masses. But the fact is, this was a valid Mass and it was being brought to some young men who may not have gone otherwise. We have all seen Masses celebrated during war in some pretty deplorable conditions. We are in a spiritual war now which has even bigger consequences - the salvation of souls. As they say, if Mohammed won't come to the mountain, the mountain has to go to Mohammed. Hopefully this poolside Mass will lead these young men to come to church.
The Rorate Caeli folks never say that "the only real Mass is the TLM". They certainly believe that the regular mass is a real mass.
In all seriousness, I'm kind of concerned because you have gone from one extreme to another. I read your blog a few times when you were a fire-breather launching missiles at wayward prelates, acting as though salvation for the world depended upon a perfect Church, and now you've gone to the other extreme: 'God's in charge and even if we constantly serve Him up a pile of crap, His grace will turn it into gold.' Another way to say it, is you went from a 1910 Catholic to a 1970 Catholic. There's a golden mean between those two positions--even if we're all still trying to find it. Pax Christi.
So, wartime exceptions justify this disrespect (and disobedience to the rubrics)? Odd reasoning.
And in view of your criticism of clergy on your own website, aren't you the pot calling the kettle black? Or is it only the pope people aren't allowed to criticize?
Jesus said that those who are faithful in small matters will be faithful in larger. I would say the writer (not the Rorate Caeli author) who is an alumnus of the school, has it about right. And having attended a Catholic college that was undermining the faith back in the 60s, I seriously doubt the poolside Mass will "lead these young men to come to church." But if the mountain "has to go to Mohammed" maybe priests should start saying a late vigil Mass on Saturday nights at local bars. I'm sure there must be some Irish pubs that would cooperate. And at least they wouldn't be missing Mass.
You don't know any of the facts behind this story, and the alumnus of the school doesn't give us any. I don't like the fact that these young men are dressed (or undressed) in such a manner at Mass. But if this brings Our Lord to those who would not otherwise be there, and maybe bring them to a real Church, then is it really such a terrible thing? We live in extraordinary times, and sometimes we need to resort to extraordinary methods to bring salvation to people.
And where do I criticize clergy on my website? If anything, I go out of my way not to criticize them. In fact, you have gone after me because I won't criticize them (e.g. St. Francis of Assisi Church, Cardinal Dolan, et al.)
You lambasted the priest at Holy Innocents giving practically a line by line criticism of his homily defending the parish. From someone who says criticizing clergy is wrong...well...it seems you have one standard for others and another for yourself.
As for your name calling, I add it to your dismissive reference to me as angry when I posted a comment on your blog. Ad hominem attacks are the easy way to dismiss those who disagree with you.
I "lambasted" the priest at Holy Innocents? I know Father Wylie personally and as I said in my post, I think he is a good and holy priest. But he way overstepped when he attacked the NY Archdiocese from the pulpit, comparing them to England and Ireland when Catholicism was outlawed and priests were being drawn and quartered. He was inciting the people against Church hierarchy and that is just wrong. He was disciplined by his superiors at the UN and called back to South Africa by his bishop where I am sure he was duly and rightly disciplined.
I did not make any personal judgments about Father Wylie. I pointed out that his actions were wrong, and his superiors obviously felt the same way. Priests take promises of obedience. Speaking against Church hierarchy breaks those promises. That is what I was pointing out.
What name calling did I engage in here? You are misrepresenting me and I called you on it. I think I have a right to do that.
You have pointed out numerous times that people don't know enough about things to make judgments, but you have now judged me as "very angry" and "prejudiced." It appears you know the state of my mind, heart, and soul. I could make a judgment about you based on that, but I won't. I presume that you are doing what you think is right as a Catholic.
My problem with some of your blog posts is that you tell others not to judge, but your blog (like mine) is filled with judgments. But yours seem to be mainly aimed at those who espouse their orthodoxy in a way you don't like (especially traditionalists like John Vennari and Catholic Family News), while you give miles of leeway to those who promote heterodoxy.
And how do you think you come across by your frequent judgments of the traditionalists?
Actually, I get it from both sides -- not traditional enough for the traditionalists and too traditional for the traditionalist critics.
Perhaps we should pray for each other and presume the best. I'm offering my rosary for you today.
Mary Ann, I really don't think it is right that we are using Terry's blog to argue our differences. If you have a problem with me, take it directly to me. You know where I am.
As far as what I perceive as your anger, that is always the tone of your comments to me. It is evident in this last comment.
Traditionalists do not leave any doubt what they think of me. Look at the comments left on my blog and you will see what I am talking about.
And yes, I have a huge problem with people like John Vennari, CFN, The Remnant Newspaper, etc. They are constantly attacking the hierarchy of the church, most especially Pope Francis, completely dismiss Vatican II as a valid council, and think the only true Mass is the Latin Mass. among many other things. Yes, I have big problems with that.
I've notice on your blog that you proudly announce that your writings have been included in a book produced by Angelus Press. Angelus Press is the publishing arm of SSPX. I''m assuming you know that, and if you do, why are you proud that they chose your writings?
Please, let's take this off of Terry's blog. This is not the place for it.
One last comment: I do like your idea about praying for one another. I for one can always use prayers. Catholics do not need to be fighting among each other when the church is under siege everywhere in the world . We need to come together.
Well, the pool mass took place only a few miles from the TLM mass at the Cathedral in Philadelphia. Even if the young men couldn't or didn't want to attend a TLM of that magnitude (very beautiful, but 2 and a quarter hours long, I know, because my husband and I attended, along with our growling stomachs :)), there are MANY Catholic churches to choose from in that immediate area, of all stripes. I can't imagine what would make attending one of those prohibitive to the men at La Salle. All I can think of is some connection to the blessing of the water, done at the Jersey shore on that day. Loose connection.
Personally I find the 'celebration' inexcusable - unless it was the last chance for Mass before the apocalypse - and even then it would be hard to explain - there had to be a chapel on campus. Celebrating Mass on a tv table poolside for boys in swimwear strikes me as rather 'queer'.
Please comment with charity and avoid ad hominem attacks. I exercise the right to delete comments I find inappropriate. If you use your real name there is a better chance your comment will stay put.
This surely does seem wrong. But I am immediately wary when I see the source of this - Rorate Caeli. They are mlitant traditionalists. They feel the only real Mass is the TLM, and have no qualms about attacking Church hierarchy, including the Pope. When Pope Francis was elected, they called it the worst choice possible.
ReplyDeleteIn this article, they write, " Does this not accurately reflect how most mainstream Catholics treat Sunday Mass, if they even go, where everyone is too busy to devote even one hour to hear Mass with respect, reverence and piety?" In other words, if you don't think like they do, you are at best a borderline Catholic with one foot out the door and the other on a banana peel.
No, I don't support poolside Masses. But the fact is, this was a valid Mass and it was being brought to some young men who may not have gone otherwise. We have all seen Masses celebrated during war in some pretty deplorable conditions. We are in a spiritual war now which has even bigger consequences - the salvation of souls. As they say, if Mohammed won't come to the mountain, the mountain has to go to Mohammed. Hopefully this poolside Mass will lead these young men to come to church.
The Rorate Caeli folks never say that "the only real Mass is the TLM". They certainly believe that the regular mass is a real mass.
DeleteIn all seriousness, I'm kind of concerned because you have gone from one extreme to another. I read your blog a few times when you were a fire-breather launching missiles at wayward prelates, acting as though salvation for the world depended upon a perfect Church, and now you've gone to the other extreme: 'God's in charge and even if we constantly serve Him up a pile of crap, His grace will turn it into gold.' Another way to say it, is you went from a 1910 Catholic to a 1970 Catholic. There's a golden mean between those two positions--even if we're all still trying to find it. Pax Christi.
So, wartime exceptions justify this disrespect (and disobedience to the rubrics)? Odd reasoning.
ReplyDeleteAnd in view of your criticism of clergy on your own website, aren't you the pot calling the kettle black? Or is it only the pope people aren't allowed to criticize?
Jesus said that those who are faithful in small matters will be faithful in larger. I would say the writer (not the Rorate Caeli author) who is an alumnus of the school, has it about right. And having attended a Catholic college that was undermining the faith back in the 60s, I seriously doubt the poolside Mass will "lead these young men to come to church." But if the mountain "has to go to Mohammed" maybe priests should start saying a late vigil Mass on Saturday nights at local bars. I'm sure there must be some Irish pubs that would cooperate. And at least they wouldn't be missing Mass.
You don't know any of the facts behind this story, and the alumnus of the school doesn't give us any. I don't like the fact that these young men are dressed (or undressed) in such a manner at Mass. But if this brings Our Lord to those who would not otherwise be there, and maybe bring them to a real Church, then is it really such a terrible thing? We live in extraordinary times, and sometimes we need to resort to extraordinary methods to bring salvation to people.
DeleteAnd where do I criticize clergy on my website? If anything, I go out of my way not to criticize them. In fact, you have gone after me because I won't criticize them (e.g. St. Francis of Assisi Church, Cardinal Dolan, et al.)
Your prejudice against me is showing, Mary Ann.
You lambasted the priest at Holy Innocents giving practically a line by line criticism of his homily defending the parish. From someone who says criticizing clergy is wrong...well...it seems you have one standard for others and another for yourself.
DeleteAs for your name calling, I add it to your dismissive reference to me as angry when I posted a comment on your blog. Ad hominem attacks are the easy way to dismiss those who disagree with you.
I "lambasted" the priest at Holy Innocents? I know Father Wylie personally and as I said in my post, I think he is a good and holy priest. But he way overstepped when he attacked the NY Archdiocese from the pulpit, comparing them to England and Ireland when Catholicism was outlawed and priests were being drawn and quartered. He was inciting the people against Church hierarchy and that is just wrong. He was disciplined by his superiors at the UN and called back to South Africa by his bishop where I am sure he was duly and rightly disciplined.
DeleteI did not make any personal judgments about Father Wylie. I pointed out that his actions were wrong, and his superiors obviously felt the same way. Priests take promises of obedience. Speaking against Church hierarchy breaks those promises. That is what I was pointing out.
What name calling did I engage in here? You are misrepresenting me and I called you on it. I think I have a right to do that.
One other thing, Mary Ann - you do come off as very angry.
DeleteYou have pointed out numerous times that people don't know enough about things to make judgments, but you have now judged me as "very angry" and "prejudiced." It appears you know the state of my mind, heart, and soul. I could make a judgment about you based on that, but I won't. I presume that you are doing what you think is right as a Catholic.
DeleteMy problem with some of your blog posts is that you tell others not to judge, but your blog (like mine) is filled with judgments. But yours seem to be mainly aimed at those who espouse their orthodoxy in a way you don't like (especially traditionalists like John Vennari and Catholic Family News), while you give miles of leeway to those who promote heterodoxy.
And how do you think you come across by your frequent judgments of the traditionalists?
Actually, I get it from both sides -- not traditional enough for the traditionalists and too traditional for the traditionalist critics.
Perhaps we should pray for each other and presume the best. I'm offering my rosary for you today.
Mary Ann, I really don't think it is right that we are using Terry's blog to argue our differences. If you have a problem with me, take it directly to me. You know where I am.
DeleteAs far as what I perceive as your anger, that is always the tone of your comments to me. It is evident in this last comment.
Traditionalists do not leave any doubt what they think of me. Look at the comments left on my blog and you will see what I am talking about.
And yes, I have a huge problem with people like John Vennari, CFN, The Remnant Newspaper, etc. They are constantly attacking the hierarchy of the church, most especially Pope Francis, completely dismiss Vatican II as a valid council, and think the only true Mass is the Latin Mass. among many other things. Yes, I have big problems with that.
I've notice on your blog that you proudly announce that your writings have been included in a book produced by Angelus Press. Angelus Press is the publishing arm of SSPX. I''m assuming you know that, and if you do, why are you proud that they chose your writings?
Please, let's take this off of Terry's blog. This is not the place for it.
One last comment: I do like your idea about praying for one another. I for one can always use prayers. Catholics do not need to be fighting among each other when the church is under siege everywhere in the world . We need to come together.
Right...Sorry, Terry! Love your blog. :)
DeleteWell, the pool mass took place only a few miles from the TLM mass at the Cathedral in Philadelphia. Even if the young men couldn't or didn't want to attend a TLM of that magnitude (very beautiful, but 2 and a quarter hours long, I know, because my husband and I attended, along with our growling stomachs :)), there are MANY Catholic churches to choose from in that immediate area, of all stripes. I can't imagine what would make attending one of those prohibitive to the men at La Salle.
ReplyDeleteAll I can think of is some connection to the blessing of the water, done at the Jersey shore on that day. Loose connection.
excuses, excuses....
ReplyDeletePersonally I find the 'celebration' inexcusable - unless it was the last chance for Mass before the apocalypse - and even then it would be hard to explain - there had to be a chapel on campus. Celebrating Mass on a tv table poolside for boys in swimwear strikes me as rather 'queer'.
ReplyDeleteThe rule in my house is that no matter how hot it is - every male wears a shirt at the table and takes off their hat - same for Mass.
ReplyDeleteHas Jeffery Anderson seen this photo?
ReplyDeleteLOL! Now that is funny. Thanks.
Delete