And the dishonest judges.
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Some bloggers, a couple of them women, get criticized online for some of their very frank statements - almost as if they are public sinners, accused of detraction, slander, calumny, and rash judgement. It's a risk we all take every time we open our mouths or our laptops to comment on a controversial issue. Everyday everyone of us sins somehow - except of course for those souls living in transforming union I suppose - but even then Our Lord can leave a particular soul with all the human foibles and faults necessary to test the charity of those they encounter. Consider the Russian fools for Christ, such as St. Xenia and St. Basil. There are other saints in the Latin Church who annoyed those they lived with as well - the only ones I can think of at this moment are Jerome and Catherine of Genoa. Like Simei who insulted King David, God sometimes uses the most unlikely persons to call out an important personage - or to call the likes of me out, an insignificant blogger.
That said, I responded to a friend who was put off by some of the commenters on this blog, and perhaps some of the posts I did that may have attracted more negative commentary. Stuff happens, what can I say? I'm sorry. I can't defend myself. But I do want to defend a couple of people who I think have been mis-characterized as overstepping boundaries or saying things they maybe shouldn't have - in the opinion of other readers I mean.
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This is pretty much what I said in an email to my friend:
I honestly see your point about some of the negative rhetoric, and can understand it to an extent, since I was once taken aback by what initially struck me as an abrasive manner - but the woman is just being honest and it is 'just her way', so to speak.
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Perhaps surprisingly to some, I get a few housewives and mothers sending me emails full of frustration because of the confusing, conflicting messages coming out of diocesan chanceries and Catholic parishes, schools, colleges and so on as regards sexual morality and Church teaching. What I came to realize and understand is that these women are first and foremost mothers whose natural instinct is to protect their children at all costs - committed to educating them and training them to live good lives in this world and become saints in the next. That is their job, and it is God's will: The will of God is our sanctification, and these are mothers committed to their vocation. One has to understand that dynamic and never dismiss them - they are very much like the importunate widow in the Gospel, oftentimes dealing with dishonest judges, as it were - sometimes for years.
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I have gained a deep respect for these women. They have a right to speak. I'm honored they comment on this blog. I'm always amazed how more liberal-progressive types - often women religious - get the ear and approval of so many in the Church, while others who tend to be more conservative, and more faithful to Catholic teaching, seem to be ignored and frequently condemned for their candor and perceived lack of charity. Undeterred, they remain persistent, and as St. Catherine of Siena affirmed:
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"We've had enough of exhortations to be silent! Cry out with a hundred thousand tongues. I see that the world has become rotten because of silence."
Illustration: Importunate widow and dishonest judge.
Terry
ReplyDeleteI would recommend you look again to the lessens of the Desert Fathers. Or St Francis of Assisi. Or St Thomas More. What you have is an agenda, and you can see that by the inconsistent application of their concerns. When it is demonstrated that similar concerns could be had of those they promote, they begin to engage all kinds of sinful activity. It is one thing to be prophetic; it is another to be slandering people. Remember who the accuser of the brethren is.
"What you have" is not you.. I mean what you have been brought to your attention are people with an agenda. If you look closely, they will raise all kinds of accusations -- if you question then, they start a smear campaign against you. That again should be a firm warning. Look to their sources -- such as Michael Voris. Again, it is the internet inquisition, which again, you have pointed out is in error.
ReplyDeleteThanks very much Henry, as always, I will take your advice into consideration. You know how much I respect your opinion - you too are a very important voice.
ReplyDeleteI hope to be watchful of my ways. That said, I hope these folks remain sincere and apply the necessary corrections as regards any error in what they say and do, and the manner they do it in.
My post was also in reference to some of the non-blogging/non-commenting readers who express so many of the same sentiments in agreement with the more outspoken bloggers. What really impressed me overall is that protective instinct of the mother and the willingness to do what is necessary to protect her offspring.
Hopefully we can amend our ways and keep our discourse civil and respectfull.
Let's pray for one another.
Mother or father, man or woman, sinner or saint, we all have a responsibility to choose our words carefully, especially in public discourse.
ReplyDeleteAll of the recent talk of "scandal" certainly applies to Christians who, for lack of charity, tarnish the name of the Christ.
There is a way to speak your truth in charity and humility.
Thanks Thom - I stand by this post however.
ReplyDeleteThey have a right to speak, surely, as we all do, but I don't think the tone (the throw the bums out, bishops are nothing but this or that kind of tone, I mean) that sometimes accompanies what is said is helpful and, sometimes, I don't think it's just. It seems that people often hear the tone over the content of the remarks and dismiss the content as inflamatory or ridiculous.
ReplyDeletePatrick it is not just tone. Look to the false accusations labeled against me in this post:
ReplyDeletehttp://throwthebumsoutin2010.blogspot.com/
When one can see the misrepresentation of the discussion which was engaged here, that should give caution on their other accusations.
"Women have a very great influence over men, a very great influence. I think I should spend a little time explaining what I have learned in these (fifty-one) now fifty-three years in the priesthood. Women have very deep influence first of all over men.
ReplyDeleteIn giving retreats I think I have said this before to men. I ask who has the stronger will, and I ask men or women? Some women are not so sure and some men are not so sure, but no husband I have ever talked to has any doubt. They find out in six days after marriage. This applies not just, nor does it apply mainly, to say wives. It applies to all women, to all women. I cannot tell you how much priests need to be supported by dedicated, believing, and shall I say it, out-spoken women.
Over the years dealing with so many priests I can't tell you how many saintly women have helped priests to be faithful to their priesthood".--John Hardon SJ
Henry: food for thought...
"Women have a very great influence over men, a very great influence. I think I should spend a little time explaining what I have learned in these (fifty-one) now fifty-three years in the priesthood. Women have very deep influence first of all over men.
ReplyDeleteIn giving retreats I think I have said this before to men. I ask who has the stronger will, and I ask men or women? Some women are not so sure and some men are not so sure, but no husband I have ever talked to has any doubt. They find out in six days after marriage. This applies not just, nor does it apply mainly, to say wives. It applies to all women, to all women. I cannot tell you how much priests need to be supported by dedicated, believing, and shall I say it, out-spoken women.
Over the years dealing with so many priests I can't tell you how many saintly women have helped priests to be faithful to their priesthood".--John Hardon SJ
Henry: food for thought...
Maria
ReplyDeleteWhat does that have to do with women using false accusations while claiming some prophetic necessity for lies?
Seriously. There is a problem here. My comments are not about a rejection of strong women (as anyone who read what I've written on InsideCatholic knows).
Terry,
ReplyDeleteI want to say thank you for doing the right thing.
Look at what happened here. I was falsely accused of slander, my soul accused of being out of a state of grace for all kinds of things listed by refence to Catechism. These were untrue and are tactics used to intimidate and malign people, tuurn others against somebody who is calling them on their errors and scandal.
Henry has been able to do significant damage to me personally with similar false accusations. He says these things to whip up malice hoping others will join him and some have.
We have tried to say things politely in the Church but this is the treatment we get. It is doiing terrible damage.
I have said this before, but Henry did this to me on another apostolate when I was pointing out errors. Oddly enough, the man in vharge of the apostolate had come under seige for something he did wp years ago. It was a terrible crucible for a confessed sin in a man who had turned. His life around. I spent years talking tpo people and donors and being a kind woman drying his tears and being supportive personally and professionally.
You know what the kicker is? Henry was one of the people out bashing this man when he was down.
When I called some erors, he whipped up a similar attack and turned people againsst me, had me banned. This same site hosts and supports Mark Shea for heavens sake who is very blunt.
How many people will stand up to this kind of bullying? Not many. When we do, feathers are useless. Blunt speak as mothers have become necessary against this kind of bullying.
It must be stopped.
I did not slander the bisho p and this attack is meant to stop my effective ministrry.
It is wrong what he is doing. Terribly wrong.
Carol
ReplyDeleteYou make false accusations, and your response is to say you are being attacked when you are called out on those accusations. You accuse me of supporting sexual impurity and abortion, neither of which is true. But this is how you act.
I have never had you banned anywhere. So again, more false accusations.
You would do well to be careful. You keep digging yourself into a bigger hole.
Btw, I don't know what you are insinuating is a mischaracterization of the thread you started calling me a liar and a slanderer and quoting the CCC. You whipped up the attack, others chimed in. All of those things I mentioned were charactured about me. Read the thread.
ReplyDeleteHenry: I don't know who you are. I do know Carol. She has slandered no one. What does the Enemy seek? The destruction and division of the Church. Let us not fall prey...
ReplyDeleteHenry, you are a mucker of teaching and an attacker, I don't know where you stand and it doesn't matter to me because you confuse people.
ReplyDeleteMy conclusions about your mucking and attacking does not make it slander. MSW claims he is prolife too but it simply doesn't make sense.
You didn't tell them to ban me, you simply whined about how sinful and terrible I was that they got on board. Just like you are doing here.
We have had to get blunt because of these attacks or our own children will fall to your style of bullying. That we will stop at all costs. This is why we aredoing it. We have been maligned and trampled. You whip up frenzies so we will be shunned even in front of our children.
Maria
ReplyDeleteShe said I am pro-abortion and pro-sexual immorality. I am neither. That alone indicates her false witness. She does this with people often; if people respond and ask questions, she makes accusations in reply -- this is what is going on right now.
To say she has not done so is to disregard what she has said. She said a bishop of the church was pro-choice. She didn't back it up, either. She just adds things and has no respect for the office itself. St Catherine did. This should tell us something. She is willing to throw all kinds of accusations if people don't follow her; I know she lied about me. Enough of this.
Carol
ReplyDeleteYou don't know where I stand, and you don't care. You will accuse me without knowing where I stand! And then you call me a "mucker of teaching." If you don't know where I stand, how can you even make that accusation? Seriously, the one who keeps throwing insults and makes accusations of people, and then say "I don't care if it is true or not" says enough. For those who have an ear, let them hear.
Henry, people have a right to draw conclusions and judgments when you cloud something you do or say with muck. Michael Sean Winters claims he is prolife too, but as I said, it just doesn't gel. The President says he is prolife, but again, it doesn't gel.
ReplyDeleteI have read many things you have written aand watched your conduct now for several years.
What you claim to be your convictions doesn't gel with me.
People made judgements about Kicanas that are sound. These judgments are not slander and you had no right to behave in rhe manner you did and get others to mischaracterize me along with you.
All of the charactrizations about my judgment on Kicanas are false. This is a perfect example of how you lead a false charge to create malice.
This is done in every parish and we all have retreate. Our children get sweptup into the confusion you sow and the malice you create alienates them from the Church and their salvation.
We have had to get blunt and push you back for the sake of witnessing to our children. We have tried reason and logic. We have tried appeals to proests and bishops. To no avail. We are at war for the soul of the Church and the language you hear is righteous.
We have had enough of it.
"...We are at war for the soul of the Church and the language you hear is righteous..."
ReplyDeleteThis is the winner of the argument.
The Supreme Law of Holy Mother Church is the Salvation of Souls.
Those that carry on that fight are Church Militant.
*
Carol
ReplyDeleteYou keep changing your story when pressed. At times you say you know nothing about me; now you know everything about me because you have read what I have written for years.
It is clear, what is going on:
1) you think you are *the* teacher.
2) you think *you* are absolutely right and anyone who differs from you in interpretation of facts must be evil people who support evil
3) you therefore accuse me of all kinds of evil.
If it is a battle for the soul of the Church, why do you have no confidence in the Spirit who leads the Church? Why do you think it is you who holds everything? And why, again, do you have to constantly end up with all kinds of false witness?
"Henry, people have a right to draw conclusions and judgments when you cloud something you do or say with muck."
Er. I think the Catechism said something else. What was it?
477 Respect for the reputation of persons forbids every attitude and word likely to cause them unjust injury.278 He becomes guilty:
- of rash judgment who, even tacitly, assumes as true, without sufficient foundation, the moral fault of a neighbor;
- of detraction who, without objectively valid reason, discloses another's faults and failings to persons who did not know them;279
- of calumny who, by remarks contrary to the truth, harms the reputation of others and gives occasion for false judgments concerning them.
2478 To avoid rash judgment, everyone should be careful to interpret insofar as possible his neighbor's thoughts, words, and deeds in a favorable way:
Every good Christian ought to be more ready to give a favorable interpretation to another's statement than to condemn it. But if he cannot do so, let him ask how the other understands it. And if the latter understands it badly, let the former correct him with love. If that does not suffice, let the Christian try all suitable ways to bring the other to a correct interpretation so that he may be saved.280
Oh. That's right. You keep finding all kinds of excuses to run contrary to the charity needed. You keep making accusations and changing explanations for them.
"The sacred synod teaches that the bishops have by divine institution taken the place of the apostles as pastors of the Church, in such wise that whoever listens to them is listening to Christ and whoever despises them despises Christ and him who sent Christ." Lumen Gentium III: 20.
Yes, cry out with a hundred thousand tongues, but only if you are speaking the truth and sticking to the facts. I'm disappointed to read this post, which seems to be a missive encouraging the crusaders, and I'm very saddened by the comments. Anyone who has followed this thing on Commonweal, or here, can see who is guilty of the wild statements and mischaracterizations. (You start with one statement.... he patted someone on the butt....and it becomes....he's grabbing their genitals.) Gross mischaracterizations ad nauseum.... This kind of crusade is not what the Church needs. No thanks.
ReplyDelete...yawn...
ReplyDeleteYou keep pretending that whatever happened in the barroom was a friendly pat in the butt to a minor.
ReplyDeleteBut, in reality, the conduct was witnessed by somebody who believed it was a sexual assault. Therefore, to portray this as not a friendly pat on the backside is incorrect.
Don't even want to go into the ins and outs of the commenter's arguments, but do want to highlight one truth I know about me, that Terry has also and thankfully picked up about mothers in general( yes I do mean all mothers, Judgment Day will make everything clear to individual's consciences). Their duty to their children, in God's eyes. Therefore eternity's eyes. I have given birth ( and it ain't a pleasure ride, especially with full blown eclampsia) to five sons. I have also lost another two.
ReplyDeleteMy girly dreams soon faded like any man made kingdoms, brought to nothing. In my older years, I cling to one truth, not always valiantly or admirably, but nevertheless, whether I attain eternal life and whether my son's do, I KNOW HE IS TRUTH!
We are all sons and daughters of the One who died for us. Hear what Terry's post is saying. Forget your online ego, it's popularity will go up and down like the politcal polls. Truth will remain, and Terry spoke it, in this post. Our Lady will deliver the joy of that truth to you, but you will need to say 'yes' to the heart piercing sword. You know, the one prophesied about by Simeon, in the fourth Joyful Mystery, during the Presentation.
If life is getting more difficult, we don't stop, we just start struggling harder, and ASK FOR PRAYER! That's what I reckon we blogger's are actually here for, by the way, ultimately.
in other words, whoever witnessed the incident in the barroom with the minor turned in a report of suspected sexual abuse. You can claim the witness exagerated something "innocent" but as it turned out McCormack abused 23 more people speculation about exaggeration is moot.
ReplyDeleteFurther, the Bishop knew about that allegation because he admits summoning McCormack after receiving the complaint.
Even Michael Sean Winters and several people over at Commonweal admitted what I was saying could not be ruled out.
So all of this malice and false accusations and characterizations are unwaranted.
We have tried everything else when our children were scandalized. You Henry and the people following your lead have treated us in the manner you have displayed here. You are the cause of the divisions and exiles because priests and bishops are afraid they will be next. So are other Catholics.
Even at the other apostolate, where I spent years devoted to holding meetings with Catholics to restore the man's credibility and reputation, where I lobbied high level Catholics to be merciful and donors to, where I spent thousands of hours consoling the man as you and others treated him unjustly, he couldn't stand up to your absurd accusations and hissy fits. There are men here who will. This is another victory for the Church.
Our parishes must also be freed from this terrorism. And, it is terrorism.
Geez Louise! Not even going to try to figure out what this is all about.
ReplyDeleteThis has got to be the strangest discussion in my five year visit to Abbey Roads! I think the mast-head is going to have to be switched out to Magical Mystery Tour, or something more offbeat like that.
ReplyDeleteHenry, none of your assertions and characterizations are true. This is a form of bullying and spiritual abuse.
ReplyDeleteIf there was a venue for justice that was not retaliated against in the ways you are retaliating against me, we would not have needed this crusade. But the fact is, everything we tried to report, even the abuse of our children, brought about the kind of treatment you carried out in these boxes.
Everything has been laid to waste because of the cowardice. I find it repehensible, if not absurd to say the comments over at Commonweal or the conduct Henry Karlson displayed here today as examples of charity.
There is a time for every purpose under Heaven. A time to build and a time to tear down. A time for peace and a time for war.
The ship has turned at the level of the bishops. Next will be freeing dioceses and parishes and schools. No amount of terror or slander will stop us. Those days are over. More and more people are seeing through it Henry and climbing aboard the mission.
God knows what we are doing and if the miracle that just happened doesn't tell you that you are on the wrong side of the Holy Spirit on this one, you are swimming in a river of denail and I cannot help you.
I think it's interesting. Found out about 2 new bloggers/writers that I never knew about.
ReplyDeleteWow. Watching 2 (adults?) having a juvenile pissing match in the combox of a blog post having nothing to do with the actual post is just plain embarrassing and as awkward for the rest of us as though you were doing it in the cafeteria of your Jr. High.
ReplyDeleteGosh, guys, either start using email or have toastmaster's host your public debate somewhere.
It is a battle for the soul of the Church. It is also clear that the laity will no longer be silenced. Bishops feel the wind of the Holy Spirit at their back. Abp Dolan will not be cowed.It is a battle and as Fr. Hardon SJ says: we are in a war and we are all nscripted!
ReplyDeleteI say keep fighting the good fight Carol!
Whoopd: we are in war and we are all conscripted!
ReplyDeleteI say keep fighting the good fight Carol!...
ReplyDeleteWhat women should do is grow some hair, buy a few veils and use 'em, slap on a skirt and keep quiet unless in prayer.
When women jumped out of the pews and onto the altars, they chopped off their hair, burned their skirts, threw away their veils and started bullying the Priests around as though they knew better than Christ.
Girls, Christ didn't allow His mommy into the first Holy Communion, just to make it clear this is man's work. Do you know better than Christ?
Settle down, swallow your pride, and keep quite during this Crusade.
It's hard to shoot at the enemy when you have crazy women running around getting in the way.
*
whoa whoa whoa....
ReplyDeleteSo Carol should keep putting down a man and submit and be quiet... all at once?
What a trick!
That must be the Holy Spirit!
I was wondering if you-know-who was going to say something about this holy crusade led by women.
ReplyDeleteTo be fair, the women do seem to asking for the real men to stand up and fight....
He already has and his name is Abp Dolan.
ReplyDeletePablo speaks the affirming sense, for Terry here. God bless him. He speaks the truth.
ReplyDeleteMost of the people in the crusade are actually men. We are outnumbered by far and thank God for it.
ReplyDeletePablo, progressive women have indeed been bullying priests into submission. They have sissified men. They have complete control of everything. You want this to continue or shall we do something about it?
You can't bring your children to CCD or Mass without some woman or a pack of them who have the pastor completely under their control telling our children the teachings of the Church about sexuality are antiquated or trampling the Sanctuary or the Sacred Liturgy.
But when mothers went to priests to say my son or daughter was told last night that all teenagers have sex and to make sure they use a condom or if they need a ride to the health clinic to let them know - or whatever have you -- the priest defended these nutty women by saying we should give a voice to everyone and let the children choose. You want to talk about nuts? That's nuts.
Real men defended their families and when the priest still defended the women they packed up their family and went elsewhere. Here we now are completely surrounded and everything is gone. We are hanging by a thread. Our schools, our liturgy, our Catechism, our prayers, the Sacrament of Confession - nearly wiped out. There was a shred left of grace to know something wasn't right. Thank God EWTN and John Paul II or we all would have fallen into the darkness with them.
Women who are mothers and care about matters of the soul don't want teaching roles or leadership in the Church.
Our teaching role is our children and they have been scandalized. We have all been scandalized. We want them to know what was taught to them was wrong. We want to hand them the structure of the Roman Catholic Church with the teachings intact so their right of inheritance will go on throughout the generations ahead of us. No mother worth her salt is out trying to get people to read or listen to her to teach other people while her own children sit home confused. This is about righting the ship so that when we go to the local parish, the authentic faith, truth and what we teach them at home is not undermined.
You want to talk about nuts? Nuts is telling a mother she doesn't have the right to draw a conclusion about the Kicanas sex kerfuffle while screaming down her throat that she should always be respectful of other people's opinions. Think the best of them. Even, I suppose when it is painfully obvious they're lying through their teeth and our children are in danger if they get control of a leadership role.
Nuts is putting on a caustic bullying display of unsound judgments about motives or conclusions of said mother and then telling her she is uncharitable when she stands up and calls him on his tactics.
Nuts is telling mothers to sit down and let the priests and Bishops go on scandalizing our children and stealing our faith and saying nothing when spiritually abusive men try to beat righteous people down.
What we have allowed to happen is nuts.
My role is not to 'teach'. My role is to raise a spiritual army to take our religion back. It's a different kind of language than the role of somebody working on conversion and building. It's to stand and let people attack, malign, torment and slander and to expose what they are doing for all to see and to remain standing on my two feet so that others will do it too.
You want to call that crazy, so be it. I don't think 128 men in Baltimore think it's crazy nor do I know numerous high-ranking men in Rome who don't think it's crazy and everything in the deposit of faith and 2000 year history in Christendom should tell you there may be a time when God calls people to take some action.
People are complicated and flawed and sometimes Christ has to use us because our courage and love and zeal for Him is above all things and that's the best He's got to work with. He is so desperate, He's got to use the likes of me.
Thanks everyone. Let's all go to confession.
ReplyDeleteI'm closing comments now.