Wednesday, October 19, 2011

The Jews! The Jews!



Bishop Williamson and good old fashioned Catholic antisemitism.
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It lives on even amongst so-called 'Novus Ordo' Catholics - so it's not just an SSPX thing.  A few years ago while I was visiting a priest-friend, now deceased - although still alive in his rectory at the time.  He was looking out the window as we talked and beckoned me to move closer to see two Hassidic Jews walking down the street, scoffing:  "J---- C-----!  Look at those two ____, dressed like that!  Sheesh"  (They were dressed in black, black hats, black coat, with the tallit strings hanging, and wore long beards and side-burn curls.)  
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I have a couple of other examples as well, but I've probably already written about them on this blog in the past:  Like the nun who said the Jews brought the holocaust on themselves, and another priest - a historian no less, agreed.  It is ingrained in some Catholics heritage, just like the racism between blacks and whites.  People struggle with their prejudices.  Although Bishop Williamson doesn't seem to struggle at all - since he appears to believe he has all the answers, being more Catholic than the Church and all...
The Lefebvrist Bishop, Richard Williamson, tries again. On the eve of the Interrelligious meeting convened in Assisi by Pope Benedict XVI - where the participation of the chief rabbi of Rome, Riccardo Di Segni, is already in doubt - and while the congregation to which he belongs, the Society of Saint Pius X, discusses whether to accept the conciliation proposal from the Vatican, the traditionalist bishop makes himself heard once again, and takes aim at one of his perennial targets: the Jews.

They are guilty of "deicide" and "continue to act collectively as enemies of the true Messiah," he writes in the latest edition of his weekly newsletter, the Eleison Comments. "How can the Pope to abandon these truths that are so ancient?", asks the Lefebvrist Bishop.

Bishop Williamson – a former British Anglican who converted to Catholicism and was ordained a bishop by Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, along with three other brothers in 1988, a schismatic act sanctioned by Pope John Paul II with excommunication - made headlines in January 2009, when the Swedish television SVT aired an interview in which, among other things, he denied the existence of gas chambers and the death of six million Jews during the Holocaust.

His words took on global notoriety because in those days Pope Benedict XVI, moved by the desire to heal the schism of Archbishop Lefebvre, had decided to lift the excommunication imposed on four traditionalist bishops, including Bishop Williamson. This created a global diplomatic crisis and a wound in relations with those whom the last two popes have called the "elder brothers" of Christians, that has yet to heal completely.

At the origin of Bishop Williamson's new attack is something written by Pope Benedict XVI in his book "Light of the world": that the Jews can not be held responsible for 'deicide', or the death of Jesus on the cross. Words that the Lefebvrist bishop coupled with those of the U.S. Conference of Bishops, whose responsible for ecumenical dialogue, Father James Massa, last May 17 reminded the faithful that anyone who makes this accusation against the Jews, at any time in history, automatically put himself outside the Catholic Church.

For Williamson, first of all, the death of Jesus on the cross was really "deicide", because Jesus was killed, "the second person of God," and therefore, "God was killed."

Then, even if Jesus died on the cross to save all humanity, "only the Jews (the people and leaders) were the primary agents of the deicide because it is clear from the Gospels that the Gentile who was most involved, Pontius Pilate, would never have condemned Jesus" if the Jews had not asked for "blood".

Finally, according to the Lefebvrist bishop, at least one modern pope, Leo XIII affirmed the "solidarity" between the Jews "who clamored for the killing of Jesus" and Jews of today, in the act of consecrating the world to the sacred heart of Jesus, with the Encyclical Annum Sacrum of 1899.
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Although Williamson's positions are extreme even within the traditionalist world, they are certainly not isolated even within the Lefebvrist community itself. Just a month ago, the superior of the French province of the Society of St. Pius X, abbot Regis de Cacqueray, repeated the charge of 'deicide' against the Jews in a document condemning the next inter-faith meeting in Assisi. "How can one imagine that God is pleased with the prayers of the Jews, who are faithful to their fathers who crucified his son and deny the Trinitarian God?", wrote the Lefebrist superior.
Vatican Insider

I wonder what Susan Sarandon would say?  (No I don't.) 

56 comments:

  1. Catholic hatred of Jews is not only a sin, but it also defies logic and even faith, and one can only assume that those who preach it are insane. The part played even by the Jews who called for Christ's death was essential to the salvation of the entire world. Um, if he hadn't died -- as he was prophesied to do, as he CAME to do -- then we would have no hope of salvation, right? Should we hate Italians too, since their forebears scourged and mocked Him? Likewise, though Williamson et al. might not like to admit it, God can not and would not ever break a promise or a covenant, because to do so would make Him a liar, which He is not. So there goes your "replacement" theology. These people and their chums sorely need to consider the beam in their eyes, and then to get a life.

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  2. Not only is it ridiculous to lay on modern Jews the crimes of their ancestors, one can't even accuse all the Jews of the time for what happened. The crucifixion took place in Jerusalem, and there were quite a few Jews outside of that city at the time. All ready that rules out a significant number of Jews. Then there's the fact that not even all the Jews in Jerusalem were likely to be present, or in support, of the crucifixion. Laying deicide on all Jews makes no sense.

    Besides, it is important to remember that it is our sins that lead to Our Lord's crucifixion. We have all had a part to play in it, including Bishop Williamson. He would do well to remember that.

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  5. Is Williamson even a bishop at all, or a pretend one? I mean, I know he is a validly (if illicitly) ordained priest, like all SSPX priests, but is he any more bishop than my own pastor is?

    If not, then why are Orthodox and even Anglican bishops treated with a certain degree of respect? I refuse to give Williamson the honor of "his Excellency." I like calling him "His Illicitness, Bishop Williamson."

    I can think of someone who may become very angry with this post, unless that someone manages to construe that you are posting this is admiration of Williamson, which you are assuredly not, but ...

    You know.

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  6. The Third Reich had many Jews in positions of authority in its Military.

    One of the most famous was the Admiral that commanded Germany's greatest warship, The Bismark.

    Further, that Jewish Admiral chastised Hitler, in writing, in a letter to der Fuhrer, for the Kristallnacht, "the Night of Broken Glass" treatment of the Jews.

    And got away with it.

    While visiting that Jew's battleship, the Admiral refused to give Hitler the Nazi 'Heil Hitler' salute, and got away with it.

    Many people died in the second world war; many Jews, many others.

    Pray for their souls.

    It is Catholic to call the Jewish pogrom of Holocaust into question.

    One blog that is taking a blowtorch to the Jews and their pogrom to destroy Holy Mother Church is

    http://mauricepinay.blogspot.com

    it is an interesting blog.

    I believe Pinay is a name for Cardinals and prelates of the Church writing under that name.

    His Eminence Bishop Williamson is not saying anything that is not Catholic.

    I recommend Modernists read Hitlers book Mein Kampf, the section about the Jews.

    It makes you want to go "Hmmmm..."

    *

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  7. "...and no, Mercury, I do not carry a copy of Mien Kampf in my back pocket, its called High School Social Studies."

    In the early sixties.

    *

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  8. Anonymous4:39 PM

    I always find Christian hatred of Jews amusing since they worship one.

    ¡Sue!

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  9. Austringer4:44 PM

    I grew up with this bizarre attitude: "I'm not anti-semitic, I just don't like Jews", my Mom used to say, "and not because they killed Christ", she would usually add quickly.

    I don't get it, but it certainly exists in Catholic circles. My former pastor once told me over lunch, in a confiding tone, "The Jews really are behind all the problems...". This in a very Jewish section of town, by the way (I doubt the bishop knew his opinions on Jews before posting him there.) He was a big fan of E. Michael Jones, even mentioning his books from the pulpit. When I brought this up to a another parishioner, a man well-known in Catholic circles, he was sympathetic to Jones! I suspect he wasn't the only one. If so, did they really think that way, or were they just following in the pastor's lead? Neither option is attractive, though I suppose the second might be more curable.

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  10. Lütjens was able to get away with protesting Kristallnacht because a) the persecution of Jews was not in full force in 1938, and the extermination of them would not begin until over a year later and b) Hitler did not purge his armed forces as intensively as Stalin did, and actually tolerated a surprising degree of lack of enthusiam for Nazism among his high ranking officers. He wanted to win the war.

    Lütjens had a Jewish grandmother, and while that may make him Jewish under Nazi race laws, it's not like he was Jewish himself. And claiming that "the Third Reich had many Jews in positions of authority in its Military" is more than a bit of a stretch.

    And you do know that Mein Kampf is nothing but Hitler's ravings, a mish-mash of neo-paganism, Modernism, eugenics, social darwinsim, fantasy, etc., and based on nothing that even resembles scientific or historiographical research? That most of its claims are certainly bullshit and exaggerations? That Hitler somehow managed to totally conflate Judaism with Bolshevism. Liberal Jews were overrepresented in the upper middle classes and intelligentsia advocating for socialism, but this had a lot more to do with their own social class and education rather than their race or religion.

    Stay far, far away from such crap.

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  11. Let's not pretend that Reform Jews represent Judaism any more than The Episcopal Church represents Christianity. Whenever Jews happened to be involved in secularist, evil ideologies, you can bet we're not talking about practicing Jews who keep the Torah.

    In other words, not Jews at all, but secularists who serve no God. They don't deserve to be called Jews.

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  12. "..."I'm not anti-semitic, I just don't like Jews", my Mom used to say..."

    Your Mommy was right.

    The Jews are not the only Semites; Arabs are Semites in example.

    The Jews killed Christ physically, and now want to kill him mystically.

    We all know Jesus was a Jew, so was His Mommy.

    However, Jesus did leave behind the Jewish Levetical Priesthood, and established His Priesthood in the Order of Melchizedek, and He did celebrate Passover on Thursday, instead of the Jewish Friday Passover, ad infinitum.

    "...I always find Christian hatred of Jews amusing since they worship one..."

    We Catholics worship and adore a Triune God.

    >

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  13. @Saint Michael Come to our Defense, I assume you are aware that the New Testament does not abrogate the Old Testament, and, rather, fulfills it.

    God declared in Genesis 12:3:

    "I will bless those who bless you [i.e., the Jews], and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you."

    Therefore, anyone who "doesn't like" Jews and wants to get to heaven would be well-advised to take their position into careful consideration.

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  14. "... the New Testament does not abrogate the Old Testament,..'

    I'm not here to give catechism classes.

    Learn some Roman Catholicism.

    Many of your modernist beliefs are diametrically opposed to the teachings of Holy Mother Church.

    Don't read Mein Kampf?

    It was required reading in school.

    Hitler is Satan? Don't believe the Jewish smokescreen that leads us away from the cross.

    The writings of the Founding Fathers of the United States of America is tripe.

    "We the people..." is a Communist declaration.

    Thomas Jefferson, anti-Jesus Christ Freemason:

    "The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."
    ---Thomas Jefferson, in an 1823 letter to John Adams

    Many people believe some very weird things.

    And they think they're normal.

    *

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  15. What high school did you go to? A Nuremberg Gymnasium c. 1943?

    Jefferson did not believe in the Trinity, that this true. It's a mistake to worship the Founding Fathers, but it's also a mistake to assume they were a freemason cabal proclaiming communism.

    The Declaration is an honored document, and I find little at odds with true Christian Faith.

    And even if they were as bad as you claim, the founding Fathers did not call for the eradication of entire races and violent conquest of nations. Nor would they have liked Hitler's euthanasia and abortion policies.

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  16. And Pablo, I assume you are writing from the United States - so what kind of system of government do you support then, since you hate the one you live under?

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  17. Saint Michael Come to Our Defense, I will pray for the healing of your blindness. "Lead all souls to heaven, especially those in most need of Thy mercy."

    Now I'm unsubscribing from this post, because it harshes my mellow to read the deluded screeds of self-justifying bigots who insanely believe that they're doing the work of God.

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  18. Austringer - exactly. I've had it whispered to me too.

    My dad hated Jews,Blacks and Mexicans, oh and Japanese and Chinese and Koreans. Then Jeohvah Witnesses and Catholics.

    People are funny.

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  19. Austringer5:54 PM

    "My dad hated Jews,Blacks and Mexicans, oh and Japanese and Chinese and Koreans. Then Jeohvah Witnesses and Catholics."

    Hey! So did my dad -- more and more, Terry, I think we have some strong similarities in our backgrounds. Which is sad....

    In my actually not-very-rebellious youth, I used to think that I should date and marry a black Jew. Not that I ever pursued that course, but it always struck me as the perfect response to the prevailing bigotry.

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  20. Shadow - I thought his mom was Catherine Tate?

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  21. "... so what kind of system of government do you support then, since you hate the one you live under?..."

    HuH?

    I stated I do not comment here to give catechism classes.

    Since you insist, I will briefly answer your disoriented belief America is God's Country:

    Roman Catholicism demands the State submit itself to Papal Authority in all matters pertaining to the State.

    There are several Papal Encyclicals regarding Americanism (the Popes have written AGAINST Americanism); research them.

    Was Christ supposed to love Egypt and their Luciferian country just because He happened to live there?

    Your remark does not make sense.

    Be a citizen of Holy Mother Church, to the exclusion of all others.

    Dying for your country makes you a statistic.

    Dying for the Faith makes you a Martyr.

    *

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  22. Anonymous7:31 PM

    Non-sense, his excellency's views would have been considered normal before the Council.

    St. Maximilian Colbe certainly held these views as did Blessed John Henry Newman.

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  23. "Roman Catholicism demands the State submit itself to Papal Authority in all matters pertaining to the State."

    Roman Catholicism most certainly does not demand that. Prove it. You sound like a Muslim, many of whom believe that all governments not under Shariah law are illegitimate.

    The Church has always recognized that the State has a right to govern in the affairs appropriate for a state to govern.

    Americanism was not a condemnation of the American system of government, nor necessarily the American culture as such, but of the application of those civil principles to matters of religion.

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  24. St. Maximilian Kolbe and John Henry Newman held what views, that the Jews are Christ-killers and to be held as corporately responsible for the death of Christ? Prove it.

    And even so, it doesn't make it right. St. Bernardine of Siena thought it was a mortal sin for spouses to have sex without the explicit intention to procreate in that instant. He was no less a saint, but he sure was wrong on that.

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  25. Anonymous7:53 PM

    Silly me ... I thought Christ loves everybody - "St. Michael", whoever you are, you are wrong - and I will pray for you.

    Lady Rebecca

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  26. Look at the chart in the middle of this page and you'll see where Jefferson lifted from St. Bellarmine and Aquinas:

    http://dearpenn.wordpress.com/10western-civilization-2/

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  28. Catherine Tate! Rotflol !!!

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  29. Folks, I sure think it’s a waste of time trying to discuss with "St Michael". A wander through the groups promoted on SMCTOD's website strongly indicates a view that the OF of the Mass is invalid which would make SMCTOD not merely a schismatic but a heretic - even though there’s a cute pic of Benedict on the website.

    This traditionalist girl - and supporter of the EF - doesn’t care for fake traditionalists who say they honor the Holy See while at the same time picking and choosing what they believe. And you can shove the schismatic SSPX - who think they’re more Catholic than the pope - in with the other fake trads. At least the liberals are honest.

    "St Michael", if you believe that the OF of the Mass is valid then please state so - clearly and without any ambiguity - and I’ll submit a full and sincere apology but I ain't gonna hold my breath.

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  30. "Folks, I sure think it’s a waste of time trying to discuss with "St Michael"."

    His username is a prayer request I belive? Rather than a referring of himself as St Michael. Anyway, I'd miss him if he wasn't here. So let's just love him, pray for him, and ask him to do the same for us. He loves souls and prays more fervently than I manage to, that's for sure. Does Christ ask anything more?

    The link I gave which no-one has obviously tried, is from a Daily Mail article two years ago, I think around the time of the death of Williamson's mother, not sure. But the points made are by a family friend, a genteel sounding old lady and they had me in hoots of laffter. Please pop over, it's worth a read. Just to see how sweet old ladies can read between the lines about things........

    It makes him seem a lot less scary. Crazy and vain, but not scary.

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  31. Mhairi,

    I too have wondered about the canonical status of the person you mention. He advocates obedience to Church authorities whilst offering links to some rather disobedient people; there is a definite inconsistency, but this is not unusual amongst the more extreme traditionalists who can be as guity of "cafeteria Catholicism" as any so-called liberal. I do not doubt their sincerity, only their level of logic and consistency.

    Not long ago I had a brief exchange with EditorCT (who later admitted to attending SSPX Masses even though her diocese provides the EF) about the validity of the Ordinary Form and she responded that the OF "can be valid". Can? I hope that St. Michael's affirmation will be unequivocal, otherwise I would have to agree with your assessment.

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  32. St. Michael, it seems that I must repeat what I said earlier in the comments on the subject of Jews killing Christ.

    "Not only is it ridiculous to lay on modern Jews the crimes of their ancestors, one can't even accuse all the Jews of the time for what happened. The crucifixion took place in Jerusalem, and there were quite a few Jews outside of that city at the time. All ready that rules out a significant number of Jews. Then there's the fact that not even all the Jews in Jerusalem were likely to be present, or in support, of the crucifixion. Laying deicide on all Jews makes no sense.

    Besides, it is important to remember that it is our sins that lead to Our Lord's crucifixion. We have all had a part to play in it, including Bishop Williamson. He would do well to remember that."

    If you wish to work by the same logic, then I suppose that quite a few Ukrainians, Germans, Russians, and Lithuanians could lay the blame on me because my Polish ancestors killed some of theirs.

    Now, I'm curious as to how "We the people" is a communist statement, especially when it was made some time before communism ever arose. Saying "We the people" does not imply government controlled economy, or a forced redistribution of wealth. One could construe it as communist, but the statement does not necessitate such a statement. Never mind the fact that none of the Founding Fathers tried to enforce a communist system within America.

    You also say "We Catholics worship and adore a Triune God." in response to someone mentioning that we worship a Jew. Well, you are right. The problem is that your statement doesn't change a fact that we do worship a Jew. Christ was a Jew, and is part of the Trinity. Unless you'd like to deny his human nature, in which case you are free to choose any number of heresies that follow that belief, then we still do worship a Jew.

    "His Eminence Bishop Williamson is not saying anything that is not Catholic."

    He's laying blame and guilt on a number of people that had nothing to do with the crucifixion. False accusation is anything but Catholic.

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  33. “…Folks, It is a waste of time trying to discuss with "St Michael". A wander through the groups promoted on SMCTOD's website…”

    My sites are dedicated to the Holy Mother.

    From day one she has seen fit to spread the message in the sites to a world wide audience.

    Each teaching portion of my sites depicts Christ, or a young Christ teaching.

    My newest site http://fatherleofrancismcnamara.blogspot.com is something you might want to wander through also.

    If the Holy Mother and Christ groups that you find offensive, so be it.

    “… St. Bernardine of Siena thought it was a mortal sin for spouses to have sex without the explicit intention to procreate in that instant. He was no less a saint, but he sure was wrong on that…”

    Would you please fill us in on what the ends are regarding what sex is for?

    Why did God create sex?

    Please tell us.

    We await your reply, your Holiness.

    “…The Church has always recognized that the State has a right to govern in the affairs appropriate for a state to govern…”

    Who’s on top?

    You insinuate the State is like God?

    So did Lucifer.

    The Church is the head, and the Holy Father is the Father of everyone on the planet.

    "…My dad hated Jews,Blacks and Mexicans, oh and Japanese and Chinese and Koreans. Then Jeohvah Witnesses and Catholics…”

    Sounds like your dad was a good judge of character.

    You can hate all you like, but if you truly love God, at the right moment that love will conquer.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCTs1Pgm1eE

    For your consideration: a Saint Moscati video.

    In the video, a Freemason converts on his deathbed, after being in a group dedicated to Lucifer; the Freemasons.

    He had hated God all his life, but in the end, Saint Moscati brought out the Truth before it was too late.

    “…And even if they were as bad as you claim, the founding Fathers did not call for the eradication of entire races…”

    There are several orders of Genocide in the Congressional Records.

    The Sioux, Yaqui, Apache, in example. Who killed by firing squad the Mexican Priests?

    “If you are not for me, you are against me.”

    America is not a Jesus Christ country.

    Get over it and move on.

    “…Lütjens was able to get away with protesting Kristallnacht because a) the persecution of Jews was not in full force in 1938,,,,”

    There probably were some Jews that benefitted from the Third Reich’s punishment of the Jews.

    Even in those times, I believe there were some that profited from this.

    Elimination of competition, a thinning of the herd.

    “…I grew up with this bizarre attitude:..’

    Modernism has this effect on Catholics.

    Modernism takes Truth away and replaces it with ‘close’ to the Truth.

    “…"St Michael", if you believe that the OF of the Mass is valid then please state so - clearly and without any ambiguity…”

    I couldn’t care less to justify myself to you and Lucifer.

    Both of you know where I stand but still insist on trying to find a chink in my armor.

    “Do I not have you in the fold of my mantle?”

    That is my amor.

    “… and I will pray for you.

    Lady Rebecca …”

    Madam, that is a curse, not a prayer.

    Please don’t.

    *

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  34. St. Bernardine was wrong on that, like I said. It is always a sin to frustrate the procreative end of sex, which is its ultimate purpose, but the Catholic Church teaches that the choice to engage in sexual relations between spouses need not always be with an explicit aim to procreate. This is why she allows the sacrament of Matrimony for infertile and for elderly people.

    All the Church asks is that spouses be open to the gift of life by not doing anything to inhibit the work of nature. Their immediate reasons for engaging in sexual relations can be any number of legitimate reasons (read Casti Connubi, Humanae Vitae, Pius XII's speeches on the subject, or any Magisterial teaching on the matter - or 1st Corinthians, for that matter), as long as they do nothing to inhibit procreation. Whether procreation can actually occur or not at that time does not matter.

    And I never said the state is like God, I said that the state has authority in matters of secular law. The early Christians certainly recognized that. The Pope does not demand that all secular governments are illegitimate until they submit to his authority. That is Islam, not Catholicism.

    And while the treatment of the Indians in the US has been deplorable, do not use the word genocide lightly, unless you are proposing that the US Congress authorized the extermination of a race (as opposed to the brutal oppression of a culture, which, though it may be wrong is not the same as racial genocide).

    Please provide some proof for your appalling idea that some Jews benefited from Kristallnacht. You are aware that Italian Catholics did everything in their power to protect the Jews, and were encouraged by the pope, right? You are aware that even Mussolini really infuriated Hitler because he would not hand over the Jews of Italy? If you and Bishop Williamson are right, faithful Catholics should have enthusiastically handed Jews over to Hitler, the "Savior".

    But you are wrong.

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  35. Like I stated previously, I will not use Mr. Nelson's blog to catechize.

    "For those that believe, no explanation is necessary"

    "For those that do not, no explanation is possible."

    During Lent, the Priests places the paten to his face as he looks towards the Blessed Sacrament.

    This is symbolic of the Jews, that looked right into the face of the Blessed Sacrament and did not see Christ.

    It's probably symbolic of Modernist Catholics, also.

    *

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  36. Pablo, you cannot catechize because you are wrong, not because you don't want to use Terry's blog that way.

    Yes, the Jews rejected Christ, but that is not to say that all Jews at all times are always plotting against Christ and his Church.

    Why have Jews enjoyed the protection of the Vatican in Rome for centuries?

    And if you believe St. Bernardine's opinion was true, then please explain that to all the popes who have written about the matter.

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  37. Are they SSPX or the SSP卐?

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  38. Anonymous1:30 PM

    People, how can you not know your Catholic faith!!! The Jews must convert or they will be damned. This is no different for the protestants, mormons, muslims, and etc.

    Recognize that the old covenant ended upon the crucifixation of Jesus Christ. "And lo, the veil of the temple was rent in two from the top to the bottom...". "Old Testament" and "New Testament". Look up the defnition in the dictionary. Testament=covenant. There would only be one testament if the covenant didn't end. The Jewish call it the Torah, we call it the Bible. Two different books, two different relegions, two different covenants. The old covenant has ended. Everyone recognized this until post Vatican II.

    "Unless you believe and are baptized, you shall not be saved...", even the protestants get that much.

    As far as the death of Jesus being placed on the Jews... It is unquestioned that his death is the result of everyone's sin. However, the Jewish people did put Him to death. "His blood be upon is and our childrent" wasn't a statement of asking for forgiveness, it was a statement for taking responsibility. When Pilot asked the Jews if Jesus was their king, they said we have no King but Caesar. When the messiah came to the Jews, they rejected him and chose the world.

    I have not hate for the Jews. We should show them Christian charity as we would for any non-catholic in hope for their ultimate conversion and salvation.

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  39. So, every Jew was in the crowd who condemned Jesus?

    "The Jews must convert or they will be damned. This is no different for the protestants, mormons, muslims, and etc."

    The pope disagrees with you, as does the Catechism, even before Vatican II. Even Archbishop Lefevbre rejected the Feeneyite interpretation of Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus. That is not to say that anyone is saved outside of the Church, just as no one is saved without Christ. It's just that the Magisterium understands EENS in a different way than you are proposing.

    So you think all those Orthodox saints are really just burning in Hell right now?

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  40. And yes I do pray for the conversion of my Protestant friends and family members. But if they die, I'm not going to assume they went to Hell - I'm going to pray for Mercy for them, like I would for anyone.

    "Oh well, that dude's in Hell, no use praying ..." Not how I see it.

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  41. Alvin2:51 PM

    I do know my faith. From the Pope:

    “In this place, remembrance must also be made of the Kristallnacht that took place from 9 to 10 November 1938. Only a few could see the full extent of this act of contempt for humanity, like the Berlin Cathedral Provost, Bernhard Lichtenberg, who cried out from the pulpit of Saint Hedwig’s Cathedral: “Outside, the Temple is burning – that too is the house of God.””

    “Furthermore, the Church has not failed to deplore the failings of her sons and daughters, begging forgiveness for all that could in any way have contributed to the scourge of anti-Semitism and anti-Judaism. May these wounds be healed forever!” – Pope Benedict XVI, Meeting with Reps of the Jewish Community, 22 Sept 2011.

    “Christians and Jews share to a great extent a common spiritual patrimony, they pray to the same Lord, they have the same roots, and yet they often remain unknown to each other. It is our duty, in response to God's call, to strive to keep open the space for dialogue, for reciprocal respect, for growth in friendship, for a common witness in the face of the challenges of our time, which invite us to cooperate for the good of humanity in this world created by God, the Omnipotent and Merciful.” Pope Benedict XVI, Visit to the Synagogue of Rome, 17 JAN 10

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  42. Alvin, it's not use. They just accuse Benedict XVI of modernism and say he "doesn't speak like a pope."

    As for me, *sigh* "Ubi Petrus ..."

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  43. Taleb5:01 PM

    It is wrongheaded to read the truth that the Jewish religion is not salvific and jump to the conclusion that anyone who espouses that truth is a Feeneyite.

    This isn't as difficult and murky as our popes like to make it. Christ told us he was the way. He also told us not to despise those who worked in his name, but apart from His apostles. We must understand a clear difference between the separated Christians on one hand and those who are without any working divine plan.

    Certainly we can pray for mercy, and our Lady at Fatima exhorted us to. Certainly that unhappy half of the Hebrews that joined the rabbinic faith instead of the Christian one, and that continues to reject Christ today, is in most need of His mercy.

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  44. Alvin5:07 PM

    St. Thomas Aquinas studied the works of the great Jewish scholar Moses ben Maimonides. In fact, Aquinas incorporated a lot of Maimonides' thinking into his own writings - with citations.

    Will the SSPX/SSP卐 now condemn him as a modernist?

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  45. Alvin5:12 PM

    @ Shadowlands, 1:57p.m.

    Thanks for the Daily Mail link. That article explains his anti-Semitism. Anti-Semitism is usually spread through the parents.

    Terry is correct - there is a lot of it in Novus Ordo circles as well.

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  46. Taleb, it is also wrong to take from the conclusion that the Jewish religion is not salvific that "all Jews go to hell".

    Of course the Jewish religion is not salvific - but do you really think the popes are complicating things too much? Are you accusing them of wishful thinking?

    We need to evangelize the Jews, yes, but when they die, like anyone, I pray for God's mercy.

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  47. Saint Michael, come to our defence:

    I notice that in your rambling response to Mhairi you failed to deal with the real issue that she raised (also mentioned by me): Do you unequivocally believe in the validity of the Ordinary Form of the Mass?

    You say that you will not use this blog for catechesis: I neither expect, nor wish, a catechesis. I am looking for a statement of orthodox Catholic faith, which is entirely different.

    Again, do you unequivocally believe in the validity of the Ordinary Form of the Mass? The answer is “Yes” or “No”

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  49. SMCTOD,

    Oh dear, personal insult: the sad refuge of those who avoid answering a simple question (or, in this case, making a basic statement of faith). Thank you for the laugh about your manhood; at least you have a sense of humour.

    However, if you are as much a man as you claim, sir, man-up and declare your faith (or lack thereof) in validity of the OF form of Mass.

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  50. SMCTOD,
    Well, are you going to reveal whether or not you believe, unequivocally, in the validity of the Ordinary Form of the Mass?

    May I suggest that the question is NOT the degree to which Judaism is salvific but do we as Catholics see the Jews as friends or enemies of the faith.

    The Popes have made it clear - they are friends and there is a spiritual connection between Catholics and Jews.

    Perhaps a person who doesn't see the Ordinary Form as valid is deprived of the grace that comes from union with the Roman Catholic faith and, therefore, is unable to see the link between Judaism and Catholicism.

    The Jews gave us God.

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  53. Alvin, I could have told you where that statement would get you, unfortunately.

    Pablo, where did we get the Old Testament from? From what nation did Christ come to mankind?

    What is your opinion of ethnic Jews who convert to Christianity, do you hate them too? (Hitler did)

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  55. When I saw Susan Sarandon I said to myself, "YES!! She has a big butt!! As I smirked to myself but then I felt remorse and whispered outloud, "DARN, I'm such a bad Christian, I'm sorry Jesus."

    Since Susans called my Pope a Nazi, tell me, who's the bad Christian now?
    (Besides me)

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  56. @Terry, my dad wasn't prejudice, he hated all people equally. hahahaha

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Please comment with charity and avoid ad hominem attacks. I exercise the right to delete comments I find inappropriate. If you use your real name there is a better chance your comment will stay put.