The Catholic Church is changing and celibate gays are leading the way?
Let's be clear, here—the recent softening of the Catholic Church’s position on homosexuality hasn't happened in a vacuum. The church has opened itself to change because the general public's attitudes have shifted so profoundly that its condemnation of gays has begun to seem heartless and out of touch. - Source
Oh I don't know - it's not just celibate gays who led the way - c'mon - give New Ways and Dignity some credit.
Darn right.
ReplyDeleteAnd the families and friends of gay people that fill the pews..who see with their own eyes and are not blinded by the Church's rhetoric. Life and experience does much more to change attitudes then any activist groups can...God love em just the same.
ReplyDelete"The Church's rhetoric."
DeleteWhat pitiful blasphemy. To tear down the Truth, Christ and St. Paul that way, and replace it with self-serving indifference.
Such a reactionary response, a complete non answer, and another reason that people outside of your "circle of belief" dont listen to people like you. I did not tear down the "Truth," nor did not even mention Christ or St. Paul. I am talking about the rhetoric of intrinsically disordered, which I don't believe Christ uttered, or even St. Paul. The rhetoric of Cardinal Burke who suggested not having gay family members attend holiday gatherings (who the hell is going to create the centerpieces????) That is the kind of rhetoric which turns people off who have gay people they love. Don't blame Jesus for that.
DeleteI marvel at people who openly defy Church teaching on these matters yet proceed to lecture the Church on good manners and phraseology. How can one's priorities and point of view be so wickedly out of sorts?
DeleteMack, I don't think it matters if either Christ or st Paul used the phrase. The church doesn't follow sola scriptura. The old testament indicates that same sex acts are severe enough sins to destroy cities for. And they are the sins that cry out to heaven so are in a separate category of sin. while I'm no theologian, it seems that would be for violating God's plan for humanity.
DeleteAnd Terry? I am a robot.
Please define for me, what exactly is a "celibate gay"? And when has the Church ever condemned them?
ReplyDeleteSee, that's part of the problem. The notion reminds me of the Shakers - gay Catholics seem to me to be a sort of celibate religious sect - developing their identity as lgbtq - with the emphasis on q. It is connected to developments in gender ideology. I've tried to discuss it many times here. It's complicated.
DeleteClearly those who identify that way do not like the language of CDF documents on the homosexual person, specifically homosexual acts are disordered, and so on. We heard that at the Synod.
Anyway - I'm sure I will be writing more on this.
But don't "celibate," gays naturally agree that homosexual acts are disordered..isn't that why they are celibate?
DeleteI do understand what you are saying about that particular ideology relating to the Shakers and that group taking an "identity,' completely of being "celibate gays." I would think that it takes so much energy and will power to stay celibate that is an over riding concern for them.
Perhaps it's because they're single and follow church teaching. No matter what the secular world does, no matter how much it pushes, the church cannot change its teaching, therefore ssa Catholics will always be held to the same standard as any single Catholic
DeleteI think some here may find this of interest as it discusses 'gay identity': http://athanasiuscm.org/2014/10/15/franken-church-the-managed-synods-betrayal-of-jesus-christ/
ReplyDeleteFrom the article: "The real problem is that no one is talking about the fact that the “homosexual identity” is a completely modern creation. "
The flu shot, central heat and cars are also modern creations...and the point is?
ReplyDeleteAlso from this website:
"They were often married (to women), and homosexual acts were something they engaged in on the side in limited circumstances. This is more or less how sodomy occurred, and its enforcement historically was sporadic based on how public the business became, not only in Europe, but even in Medieval Islamic societies."
So you and this website are saying we should go back in time when it was "hidden," and some poor women were married to guys running around with guys? Why don't we stone adulterers and burn witches while we are at it?
However, the website does bring up a good point, Jesus and his followers and early church fathers would only know about "homosexual," acts in things like rape, prostitution and adultery. Of course they were bad. However, now that people are being open about who that ruins your narrative, and people are seeing their family members as respected and vital parts of their life. So when they go into Mass and hear someone talking like we are still in 1580, they kind of just roll their eyes. And that it the reason the Church is at best "toning it down."
Oh, and I don't respect any site which puts a clown nose on the Pope, no matter who he might be.
The Pope put the clown nose on himself. I'll leave it at that.
DeleteReally, Mack, there are a lot of people who are horrified at gay sex, both because it's unnatural and leads to illnesses and shorter life spans. All of which is separate from our pperplexity that people self identification is focused on their genitalia. You alluded above to the difficulty of attempting celibacy but my guess is that it's easier if one focuses on Christ rather than ones genitals.
ReplyDeleteThe other thing is that the genital focus leads to much inappropriate public behavior. Just the fact that people are so focused on carnality that they prefer public acts shows that they follow Satan.
Nan,
ReplyDeleteWith all due respect, genital and sexual fixation and rude public behavior is not the exclusive property of gay people..I take it you never watch Bravo...(good for you.)
I alluded to people naturally having a hard time with celibacy especially if it is a forced celibacy and a lifetime commitment with no hope of ever having an intimate relationship..or they go straight to hell. I was trying to be sympathetic to the "Spiritual Friendship," people who I feel naval gaze too often but I can understand why...no offense to you but thinking about Christ doesnt always work for a lot of people. It aint that easy for them. They should be commended for following what they believe it right, not just told to think of Christ instead of their genitals. As if they just aren't holy enough.
The church teaches us to follow CHrist and to avoid near occasions of sin. Not to do what we feel is right, wwhichis why there are so many protestant sects.
ReplyDeleteThe holy follow church teaching as it stands not as they wish it could be.
I have family and friends who do all sorts of sinful and disordered things. I still love them and welcome them. But I don't deny or pretend that sin is not sin, anc disorder not disorder. I think this is the middle way that the Pope is driving at.
ReplyDeleteIt's late and I'm confused. You mean that love and welcome sinners to the hospital is the middle ground, not pretend sin isn't sin?
ReplyDeleteThat's what I thought dump, er, reassigi Burke was about, giving the appeart of more welwelcome. People no like truth so Francis bring softer truth but still truth...we get you in the door, you maybe stay.
Sorry for typos. Phone is illiterate drunk.