Huh?
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I came across that term on another Catholic blog. The question posed dealt with whether or not "Novus Ordo priests" would have the same courage of the Mexican martyr priests during the Mexican revolution.
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I find the question offensive. First of all, because any Roman Catholic priest deserves to be respected as a Roman Catholic priest regardless of which form of Mass he celebrates. Indeed, every priest ordained in communion with Rome is a Novus Ordo priest since the Ordinary form of Mass, the Mass of Paul VI, is the ordinary form of Mass.
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Secondly, to question a priest's orthodoxy or fidelity based upon which form of Mass he celebrates, or whether or not he uses Latin, is an offense to the Holy Father and the Magisterium, the Sacred Vatican Council, the Sacrament of Holy Orders as well as the Mexican Martyrs who gave their life for the Church in our day.
This type of foolishness is what annoys me most about the overly pious, sanctimonious, elitist traditionalists, and those who play to them.
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Image: Fr. Miguel de la Mora de la Mora and Companions. Source
I stand by my question over at the "Catholic Caveman." One wonders these days if most Novus Ordo priests actually believe in the Faith. Enough to die for it?
ReplyDeleteTerry,
ReplyDeleteOne of my fellow contributors on our blog recently authored a post in which he used the phrase "Novus Ordo priests".
I'm not sure if that qualifies me as one of those nasty "Bastard people and assholes", but I think I'll take a shot at responding ---
I believe that PreVat2's generalization holds true. Granted, I have met priests who were able to celebrate the Novus Ordo with a modicum of reverence. But in all honesty, they are very much the exception, not the rule.
With all the qualifications aside, and at the risk of being looked upon as a overly pious, sanctimonious, elitist traditionalists, and just one of those who play to them, I've found that overall, "N.O." priests make a point of engratiating themselves often to the point of compromise themselves and Christ's Church. Flat-out heresy is to the point of not even raising many eyebrows. Examples aren't exactly something that one must search for, either.
TLM priests, on the other hand, by and large suffer a White Martyrdom. Not at the hand of aetheists, not at the hand of pagans. Not at the hand of Protestants.
No... at the hand of their fellow "priests". There are specific cases don't have to be hunted down all that much. In fact, they happen with regularity.
Case in point, the Notre Shame scandal here in The States. Less that 3% of American bishops have defended The Church. In all sincerity, I cannot fathom the reason for the deafening silence of the other 97%.
But anyhow, generally speaking, the average NO priest won't even defend The Church if involved in conversation, more or less a life-or-death situation.
Speaking strictly for myself, I translate "Novus Ordo" and "Traditionalist" as more of dispositions and degrees of commitment rather that liturgy celebrated.
One is built upon a foundation of quicksand, the other of concrete.
So yes... I also can't help but wonder if Novus Ordo priests would have the courage to defend Holy Mother the Church unto death. I know the TLM priests you have the image of did. I have serious doubt if many of the priests in America or England and Wales could say the same.
Oh, and just to keep the record straight, here's PreVat2's post;
Just wondering: How many Novus Ordo priests would have this type of courage today?...Like I said. Just asking.He just acked... not accused. Arae you sure that rates the tag of "Bastard people and assholes"
Dominus Tecum,
VSC
I saw the same thing and thought much the same as you. I was troubled as it is a blog I like a lot. There is only one kind of priest--Catholic.
ReplyDeleteIt's also a direct offense against Jesus Christ and as it is an attack and inspires hatred against the Church...it is a violation of the Code of Canon Law, c. 212
ReplyDeleteWith regard to the martyr priests; yes, the priests I know, who celebrate the ordinary form of Mass would have the same courage as the Mexican martyrs, Spanish martyrs, Polish martyrs, Ukrainian martyrs, African martyrs, Japanese martyrs, Korean martyrs, Vietnamese martyrs, Greek Catholic martyrs, Slovak martyrs, oh, and the Archbishop of Mosul
ReplyDeletehttp://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7294078.stm
Terrance, thank you for defending all priests.
ReplyDeleteGod is love.
"the overly pious, sanctimonious, elitist traditionalists, and those who play to them."
ReplyDeleteExactly Terry! They think they have the ONLY corner market on true spirituality. And then they go around telling others they have NO true spirituality, just because they worship with Rome in the NO Masses!
Totally offensive!
Well said, Terry. I totally agree!
ReplyDeleteTerry, sterling post!
ReplyDeleteI wanted to comment about your photo. When are you going to let us see what you really look like, and not from 30 years ago?
ReplyDeleteMaybe you could post a fake picture of a regular guy with a beer belly, and a third chin, but who still has a super smile. Maybe with a beer or a fish in his hand!! You know a real guy, and not a super model.
I rarely see these pretty boys out in public.
I posted a photo of me and that Elvis impersonator a while back, and I looked HORRIBLE. having gotten verbally assalted for 5 hours with 6 kids in the car then promplty photographed. :0
Come on Mr.Terry. Just do it.
Belinda, I can't because I'm in witness protection. ;)
ReplyDeleteROFLMAO!!!
ReplyDeleteOh yeah Mr.Nelson what did you witness. Hum??
ReplyDeleteAmen.
ReplyDeleteI wonder if the "traditionalists" actually realize how much they harm the Church.
Thom , they don't have a clue, and if you tell them they will bite you.
ReplyDeleteAmen! and Here! Here! Terry...good for you!!!! There are ONLY Catholic priests in the Catholic Church and not varying degrees of objective priestly ministry. But that post simply reinforces to me the majority sense I get when meeting most (not all) TLM people: John XXIII Mass is superior, TJM priests are more "priestly" etc.
ReplyDeleteI think we need to ask ourselves this question: do you believe with Catholic faith that the Holy Spirit directs and acts through the pope and bishops gathered in ecumenical council? If YES (congrats that means you ARE Catholic) then ask this: WHY then did he direct a re-formatting of the liturgy? You cannot excuse this as a deviation of the bishops from the Spirit's lead (that can and DID happen IMO with implementing documents but NOT those of the council).
So...doesn't this mean that the Holy Spirit was telling the Church that it was time to adapt the liturgy? And if this was the case...then is the permission to have an extraordinary form of Mass the best decision? This decision does NOT involve papal magisterial authority in the declarative sense but only in a permissive prudential sense. I think this is something for ALL who hold and teach the Catholic Faith to think about and to put aside personal preferences and desires.
Of course there is one rite and any priest sjould be willing to die for the Faith. With the abuses often associated with the NO. ( not in the books of course) i can see why the question was proposed. Actions reflect attitude
ReplyDeleteBelinda, that's why the traditionalistas wear burkas, so you can't see the fangs.
ReplyDeleteDavid - your assertion is non sequitur. The decision to call an ecumenical council is not necessrily an act of the Holy Spirit - otherwise a certain Cardinal Ratzinger would not have said this:
ReplyDelete"Not every valid council in the history of the Church has been a fruitful one; in the last analysis many of them have been just a waste of time"
Joseph Ratzinger, Principles of Catholic Theology (Germany, 1982; Ignatius Press, 1987), p. 378And the decision to reform the liturgy is not an infallible decision but a prudential one - one that can either go right or wrong.
First an aside....not every priest ordained in communnion with Rome is ordained to say the Novus Ordo mass. You forget the other 22 sui juris churches in communion with Rome who have their own liturgies. Many priests are ordained to say the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, for instance. Not all Catholics are Roman Catholics, and not all Catholic priests are Roman Catholic priests, even though they are in communion with the Bishop of Rome.
ReplyDeleteFurthermore, there are even some Roman rite priests who are ordained with the understanding that they will usually only celebrate according to the extraordinary form, the priests of the FSSP, for instance.
There are a tiny number also, who learn the Novus Ordo but usually celebrate according to the Anglican Use.
That being said, the Novus Ordo is the ordinary form. And I think it is wrong to refer to priests as "Novus Ordo priests" because what they are is Catholic priests. One might wonder how many Catholic priests today would be willing to be martyrs, just as one might wonder how many Catholics today who would be martyrs....just as one ought to wonder in fear and trembling if I, the person making such a speculation, would have the courage and faith to be a martyr.
Somehow I doubt if this is distributed perfectly according to the preferred liturgy.
Nevertheless, I do take a bit of issue with some of what you write. The radical changes to the mass were not what the council fathers intended, and were not made by the council. Have you read the document? It surely did not call for a "reformatting" of the liturgy. Latin was to remain the primary language, Gregorian Chant was to have pride of place as the music of the church.... Yes, surely the Holy Spirit would not allow the church to have an invalid mass. But that doesn't mean that the way this was done was the best way to reform the mass (it was more like a coup) or the the result was the best result.
There is a wide spectrum of liturgical opinion, and of opinions about devotions, types of piety, connections between Catholicism and political views etc. Many people who love the Extraordinary form are not "overly pious, sanctimonious elitist traditionalists". Being self rightous and judging others is a temptation and a pitfall to all religious people, as is likewise mistaking ones's tastes, ones practice of many outward devotions or ones involvement in many social action type good works, for true faith and devotion to God. The evil one goes about like a lion seeking to devour the brethren, whatever their liturgical or theological stripe. Lets try not to assist him!
Susan Peterson
I see you've deleted the comment you made in reference to certain Trads being "Bastard people and assholes"
ReplyDeleteHow kind.
Caveman - I don't really know if you are being sarcastic or what, but I'm quite a bit like you - I get pissed off and say things I don't feel a need to apologize for.
ReplyDelete