Tuesday, July 30, 2013

For your consideration: On the effect of the Pope's words ... and what Cardinal Dolan said.


 

Good timing on this new video, just released from Ignatian News Network, on the Catholic Church's outreach to the LGBT community. INN visited America magazine a few months ago, to film a Jesuit vocation video, and, during their stay, asked ...Fr. Matt Malone, SJ, editor in chief, and me to reflect on Cardinal Dolan's comments that the church could do a better job of welcoming LGBT men and women. Believe it or not, INN had planned to release the video today, before knowing about the Pope Francis's comments. (Though I suspect the title might be a new addition!)

 I think more of the effects will soon be noticed.  For instance, I doubt very much that children of 'gay couples' will be kicked out of Catholic school any longer.  Or that a man who lives with another man will be told not to lector at Mass any longer.

Just a guess.

31 comments:

  1. Interesting video, thanks Terry. I like how the one priest makes reference that its not the Catechism of the church that turns gay people away but the "informal bigotry," of some of its members. I know its very a good excuse that these people are just "being spiritually honest," with gays, or "standing up to sin," but some of those people really need to "be spiritually honest with themselves," and look into their hearts and see if that is true, or if they are using their religion as an excuse for their own bias....(notice I didn't use the word "homophobe," which is a much stronger accusation.)

    Kids are kicked out of school because their parents are gay? Your kidding me? That is just and loving? Wow, we must belong to a liberal parish!!!

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  2. BTW, I believe that saying "love the sinner and hate the sin". And what st. Francis of Assisi said, "Go out and evangelize; use words when necessary". And, also St. Catherin of Siena comes to mind. What she said is "stupendous", I believe, and I try very hard to practice it. She said that, "I see the world is rotten because of silence. Enough (basta) of silence.
    Speak the truth boldly, but with a certain congeniality." I think this helps a lot when talking, being with people with "SSA", because it helps me to actually feel consideration for them and thus I "treat them" with respect, etc. And after all, only God can see inside someone's heart, you know? God bless Terry and all yr. readers here.

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  3. Terry,

    The problem I see with this video is that there is not a clear distinction made between between people who self-identify as "gay" ie are living in the "gay" lifestyle and those who are same sex attracted but living according to the Church's teaching regarding same sex attraction. My impression from the video is that the priests and people speaking there are advocating an acceptance of those men and women who live in same sex relationships and who may be sexually active in contradiction to Church teaching. There is no question that holy mother Church welcome them with open arms but not simply leave them to their own devices. I find this problematic. All Catholics whether same sex attracted or heterosexual are called to live chastely according to their state in life PERIOD. There is no double standard. If you are same sex attracted or single or married you are called to be chaste abstaining from birth control, adultery, fornication, masturbation etc. If we love one another as Catholics we must be "speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into him, which is the head, even Christ;" Ephesians 4:15

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  4. But how does one know what goes on in someone's private life. David could be living with Tarquin but who knows what their story is? I don't know if Betty and Bob use birth control..not that I would care but even if I did its not to my knowledge. I wouldn't know if poor lonely Stan masturbates (if the Church still teaches that ridiculous thing and everyone did indeed follow it the only single people in the pews would be 80 year olds and odd balls..but I digress)Sexuality is a private matter and should remain so..so how is anyone going to speak the truth unless they have no personal boundries?

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    1. How we live matters more for evangelizing than what we say.

      And same-sex couples are obvious nowadays. Just like known adulterers and IVFers too.

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    2. Well, WE know each of us what goes on "in our bedroom" and WE all know what the Church teaches in regard to sexuality. WE don't need to know what other people are doing or not doing in their bedrooms. WE are all simply called to live chastely according to our state in life. You'd be surprised just how many "odd balls" struggling some more successfully than others at living chastely as the Church requires and "80 year olds" there are in the pews

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    3. There is a difference between being homosexual and living a homosexual lifestyle and, perhaps, advocating it.
      Children should not have to be confronted with different sets of values - if there is a contradiction in their two growing environments - home ND SCHOOL.

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  5. I do not see the kids thing working out, if Archbishop Chaput is an example. I know Cardinal Brady is trying to do it, but the problem is that once chastity and marriage is discussed (in middle school usually) it is taught that the truth of the human person creates a marriage, which creates a family. Because the schools must partner with parents (parents are the primary educators of their children), this makes it an impossible task (as Chaput noted). It causes pain and confusion in an already bad situation.

    Just as we will not recognize same sex "marriage" we cannot recognize same sex "parents" either.

    Lectoring? Let only priests and deacons read, or go back to minor orders. I'm sick of lay people in the sanctuary.

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  6. Thanks for posting this Terry. I would have missed this without being subbed to your rss because there is precious little I follow in the Catholic blogosphere anymore. I know, it's patheotic of me. Anyway, thanks.

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  8. Pp. Francis- and others- are adopting a compassionate tone and stance. And from what I've been reading, it's driving some conservative Catholics crazy.

    "It's all fun and games until gays people start being treated like brothers and sisters."

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    1. The problem, as Francis notes, is not your disorder, but your lobbying for the destruction of Church teaching. He says that is bad. Were you listening?

      Church teaching cannot change on this. It would result in undoing infallible magisterial teaching on human sexuality, birth control, masturbation, and what a human being is and is made for. In other words, actually using your own, how we act sexually DOES reflect how we are made. When we use it right, that is. When we do not, it shows our falleness.

      You are my brother, but you separated from me because you identify by sex acts and not by your true identity as a child of God made in His image and likeness. I am a disgusting person, too use your own words Thom. You labeled me as that. And yes, I am worse than any sexually active person with ssa. Homosexual acts are likely less sinful, at least numerically, than what

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    2. I do. The difference is that I fight the disorder instead of identifying by it. You are not my brother when you do not help me fight. You become my enemy when you say my ssa or bi is not a disorder. You become my enemy when you try to change my identity from Christian to " gay" or any other label to describe my problems.

      I do not ave any parades or politicians helping me. No smooth talking Baylys. They hate me. Christ loves me, and so does Francis.

      I think it is YOU who have lost. Those who identify as "gay" and lobby for it and a change in truth.

      If the Church changed., it would mean i identify no longer as a child of God, but instead as a homo, ragaholic, habitual masturbator, violent sexaholic, beastiality-watcher, porn addict, alcoholic, voyeur, and disgusting piece of shit.

      That is what you want. You do not want to accept me as that, or at all. I do not either. But you are pushing for it. You would not invite me over to your house, but Francis would. He has never referred to me as disgusting...

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    3. I'm missing something, when did Thom say that he was pushing for a changing in church teaching or call anyone disgusting? Terry, I think we are all going to need a score card on who everyone is and what is everyone saying, this is better then Passions.

      Thom just said that Francis was using a compassionate, and I will add and this is rare for a Church leader, realistic tone. (which in a church steeped in centuries of being anything but common sensical, that is the true break through for me. )And it is driving some people CRAZY that he would spend a second being compassionate to one of the flock, which says more about them and their personal issues then it does Francis or the "homosexualists," as Father "Can You Give Me Money So I Can take a FABULOUS trip to Rome," Z would call us. That's it, and the fact that people would be so thrilled to hear a small thing like that, while other people are FREAKED the hell out, tells you a lot about the current state of the Church, and might tip you off to why "homosexualists," (I cant help it, its so stupid I LOVE that word, what an idiot Z is) do become radicalized. If one kind word from the Pope sends their fellow pew sitters in a frenzy, they really know that they truly are NOT welcome and the "enemy" is a fellow Catholic.

      It is sad, but I see so many Catholics on the blogs that use their faith as a way to vent their anger, frustration, and just plain rage. I thought last night I had to take a break from the blogs as it is making me think my fellow Catholics are all angry, self righteous, hypocritical prigs, some of whom need to step away from the computer and seek therapy for their very deep psychological problems...(noone here, but boy are they out THERE one in particular is a SCARY woman) But I have to remember the compassion and love of our leader, and fellow Catholics in "real life," to renew my spirit.

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    4. Jericho,

      I have no idea have those are your particular issues or if you were just pulling them out to make a point. However, let me say this, many of us who identify as "gay," (or homosexualists, if you will, I like it, its sounds like a career and something you need an advanced degree for) do that not because we identify by our sexuality, but because society needs labels to help place us all. Simple as that. I like guys and I am a guy, so I am gay, SSA whatever the hell you want to call it. And I think that was Francis point, whatever you call it it is the same thing, and Francis doesn't play games. By using "gay," he takes away the entire political label and takes it back to what it is. He is not afraid of the word, nor is he giving it more power, it is what it is. Compassionate and commons sensical, refreshing from a Pope or any church leader, most of whom usually talk in circles so much they would make lawyers and politicians proud.

      I also have to say that if those are your issues you are very brave and honest. Most people on blogs just point to others sins and not their own. I do think that sometimes people take these very extreme ways to express their sexuality in unhealthy ways simply because the repression they feel by society and the church..(which I think its funny that many of the men who came up with those crazy restrictions on sex were themselves doing things that would make even a homosexualists like me blush!)

      And last but not least I want to say, "masturbate," not only because its not a bad thing to do (how silly, what is a healthy person supposed to do when they are single) but I just dont think that word was used enough lately on poor Terry's blog.

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    5. Mack,

      Masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action - advising someone to do so is to potentially lead them astray and risk their soul.

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    6. It is also a defiance of the constant teaching of the Church. I don't think I will ever understand how people defy the Church on non-negotiables and continue to consider themselves faithful Catholics in good conscience, present themselves for Holy Communion, etc. It isn't about judging their souls - it's an objective contraction of what a "Catholic" is bound to believe when he or she considers him or herself as such. It is scandalous to suggest anything to contrary.

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    7. I think that those "Catholics" who come along and discard Church teaching on the morality of something like homosexuality or masturbation commit an injustice to those Catholics who sincerely struggle and strive to live what Christ, through His Church, calls them to in these aspects of their life. It can be a detriment to another's authentic faith to see Church teaching flouted so casually.

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    8. Thom said I was a disgusting person last week. I am labeled. This was in response to my accurate description of sodomy between males, of which I am quite familiar.

      What kind of a person claims to have given their body, mind, and soul to Christ and His Church (which He requires) and then ignore important teachings intrinsic to the faith?

      I will not compromise. Church teaching regarding sex cannot change, and will not. I give in and seek change, ignoring truth, and I will end up in prison, dead, and condemned. It's that simple.

      Be thankful ssa is your only problem. You have it easy, Mack. But please, if you are not going to follow Christ's teachings and be my brother, at least do not be my enemy and temptor.

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    9. And Patrick is right. Mack, Thom, and Bayly play the role of temptor to me. They torment me. They are not helping me follow Christ.

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    10. Jericho,

      I am sorry if I hurt you in any way..I can be flippant and dismissive of others trials.I do try to inject some humor but I am not making fun of anyone..okay..I do mean to make fun of Z but he is an easy target. My opinion is for a church that intones natural law so much they ignore nature much to the detriment of kids growing up..look at the sex scandals most were probably good Catholic boys who never learned how to deal with their issues..so they have a twisted sexuality and hundreds of victims behind them.

      Jericho you are brave to come forward. Prayers are with you.

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    11. Patrick, I never advised anyone to do anything. That is a natural part of life growing up its neither good or bad. The church calling it that or at least its leaders I should say..makes the Church loose credibility for a lot of people..on all sexual issues.

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    12. Mack,

      Yes, you did. You said: "And last but not least I want to say, "masturbate," not only because its not a bad thing to do (how silly, what is a healthy person supposed to do when they are single)".

      You are advising someone to sin - gravely.

      How did you ever come to appoint yourself the moral authority on something like masturbation? Saying it's neither good nor bad is in contradiction to what the Church teaches. This is what I'm talking about with Catholics who defy the Church.

      The Church is not obsessed with credibility if that means keeping with what the world believes to be right in this day and age. I cannot imagine anyone reading Christ's words in the Gospels and not sensing the conflict between His teaching and what the world holds to be true.

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    13. I finally in my misspent life get to be a moral authority on something and its THAT??? No Patrick, I did not claim to be..I am simply offering the idea that the Church, by labeling a normal part of someone's sexual developement, as a "GRAVE," sin does more harm then good. The church would do well if it did say, "Hey this is normal and here's what we need to do to help develop your sexuality into a healthy person. You don't do that by making something quite natural into something dark and sinful...kinda takes the edge off of the real dark and sinfull deeds out in the world. Personally I think this stems from the early church leaders many of them were saints, but also oddballs (obviously anyone normal with a wife and kids and mouths to feed would not have the time nor the inclination to spread the word...) and sexaphobics in their own right...(many thought that sex in marriage was not a great option, everyone should be celibate and wait for Christ to return..oh wait, he isnt coming anytime soon so we need to start populating for this church. ) And no, Jesus never mentioned this and I dont think he was too concerned with it.;he had bigger fish to fry.

      I actually think Church history and its development of its sexual policies is quite interesting and I can be more articulate on this but once again I am being flippant which I didnt want to be.

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    14. You're doing that very thing - you don't see that?

      You are contradicting the Church, which says that masturbation is intrinsically and gravely disordered, by saying that it is "normal" and "quite natural," a part of healthy sexuality.

      The Church as the moral authority disagrees categorically with your view. Thus, you set yourself up as an authority to correct the Church on this teaching, which can never and will never change.

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    15. This exchange is helpful, because I chose to fight on as a Catholic, and not as a mackolic.

      He has given his stance and I consider it wrong. There is no much use in listening to him further on the matter. Porn and masturbation were but gateways. There is nothing natural about it.

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    16. Okay, you two are being real jerks, and I am going to tell you to beat it.

      Why.. I think your just trying to yank my crank!

      "Mackolic"...hmmm, I like that....tho I like "Mackalicious" best!

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  9. The video mentions many Catholics perceiving LGBTs not as individual persons but as representative of a social agenda, and I agree with this observation. Personally I have never been prejudiced and hateful toward LGBTs. I've had many LGBT friends throughout my life and I've found these peoples to be among the most intelligent, interesting, friendly, and fun loving peoples I have ever know. I have always supported the concept of civil unions, but the constant push for gay marriage, as a social agenda, has caused me to re-think the issue, which I now see as a stalking horse for Satan and his agenda. The more the radical LGBTs ram gay marriage down our social throats the more I see it as a form of sociological rape, and LGBTs as the enemy. And this is not the fault of individual LGBTs, such as the many friends I've had throughout my life, as it is the fault of those who are funding, organizing, and pushing through this ungodly agenda. In other words: Satan is screwing not only conservative Catholics and peoples by doing this, he is also screwing the LGBTs, and is creating more hatred, more division, and more confusion, which is, after all, his job. It's all very sad, in my opinion.

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  10. I think Papa Francesco used the word 'gay' because it was a word he thought people would understand. My mother who is 76 uses that word. Most people don't differentiate between people who happen to be same sex attracted and are living in conformity with Church teaching and people who are same sex attracted who are sexually active. Unfortunately, we live in a world where people like to have lables or like to be able to pigeon hole ourselves or others. I think the primary difference between people who happen to be same sex attracted but live in conformity with the Church's teaching and those who are same sex attracted are sexually active and choose to ignore that teaching is that the former no longer view the world through the lens of same sex attraction while those who identify as "gay" do see everything through that lens. There is a world of difference between saying that a Catholic man happens to be same sex attracted but strives through God's grace to live a life faithful to Jesus and His Church's teaching and someone who identifies as a "Gay man" who happens to be Catholic and ignores that Church's teaching. I think what motivates the negative reaction of "conservative Catholics" regarding the ssa issue especially in regard to what the Pope recently said is fear. I think the holy Father is calling on all Catholics worthy of the name to reach out to those men and women who are same sex attracted and help them to live lives faithful to Jesus and His Church rather than demonize them.

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