I've also seen this guy seriously saying we need to replace the US with a Catholic monarchy, and prattling on about the "perfidious Jews" and how they no longer worship Yahweh, but are a demonic sect.
All of us, married, celibate, homosexual, single against their own desires...all of us...suffer with the reality that this life, on earth, does NOT fulfill our deepest desires...all of us; there is no heaven on earth; nope. The one who suffers from same-sex attraction and lives a life faithful to our Lord Jesus Christ is going to receive a greater crown in this life and in the next for loving Jesus above all and turning their lives over to Him; M. Voris gives such a compassionate and realistic description of this. Chaste friendship, love for another without selfish interest(homosex cannot fulfill anyone...it is basically masturbatory...also, I must say in contraceptive heterosexual sex), an ability to share in our Lord's "desolation" and "abandonment" is NOT something to be despised; it is a particular gift and call to participate in the sufferings of Jesus, our true Love, the One Who abandoned Himself completely to the Father, bleeding, naked, absolutely alone...He is our Life, our Salvation, our All. Those with same-sex attraction who cleave to Him may know a holiness and joy that married people, with the joys of married life, might not know in this life... maybe...it might just be.
I'm not sure if people with same sex attraction were ever predestined to have these inclinations. Just as God did not create man to be obese the origin of same sex attractions are still unexplained. As a Courage member I find the term "victim soul" a bit too flattering and perhaps undeserved.
Thopas - I have a feeling the victim soul thing from Voris is the result of a deficiency in understanding redemptive suffering and penance - or at least a misuse of the term 'victim' as it applies to gay men. Gay people certainly do not need the idea of being a victim soul applied to their situation since the whole concept of being a misunderstood minority and marginalized by society is key to their protest - and queerly - crucial to the elitistism they cultivate.
Voris may have over-reached with the victim soul bit - we have only one victim, one mediator - Christ. Souls who suffer in witness to the Gospel participate in the sufferings of Christ, and can make up for what is lacking - but victim terminology is inapprpriate for gay people and suggests a 'special' spirituality for gay people trying to be chaste. Not so much!
That said - bridal terminology is ALWAYS used in an analogous sense - read St. John of the Cross. God forbid a sexual dimension is added to this gay crap.
And never - ever - be 'flattered' by the idea of 'victim' soul.
I just to have to add this: if "victim soul", properly understood and applied, as one who suffers from a horrible "outside" affliction (and many same-sex people feel this way, yeah?), especially if it is the result of abuse, the lack of love from the father/mother, the inordinate love of father/mother, the individual suffering from same-sex attraction, as a victim, could, in fact, be searching for the love/acceptance/affirmation of whatever he/she is needing in an in appropriate/immoral sexual/genital relationship. Once this is identified and dealt with, we no longer are dealing with "homosex" in any of its forms...we're dealing with "deprivation neurosis"...'ala' Dr. Conrad Baars...his daughter, Suzanne, is doing this therapy this very day.
Thanks Father - It's all over my head and perhaps a bit too psychologized and studied for me to get into - God bless Suzanne.
Whatever.
My point is that the mystical definition of victim soul can't be applied to this and Voris was mistaken with the terminology. At best his is a naive undrstanding of the role of the sacrifice/penance necessary to fulfill the duties of one's state in life.
The sufferings of homosexuals attempting to live the Christian life cannot be elevated above the ordinary sufferings heterosexual persons endure to preserve chastity and remain faithful to the commandments.
That said, social stigma and discrimination because of sexual orientation and the corresponding difficulties add an extra degree of suffering for the gay person - chaste or unchaste - endured in charity and patience, these matters may contribute to the sanctification of those who suffer them.
In spiritual direction gay people should always be instructed to reject any and every notion of being a victim. Psychological diagnosis and therapy should always be left up to the qualified professionals.
I agree, Terry. It is always "Jesus-Victim" Who must absolutely be the focus of any kind of spirituality that is based in one who has been abused or one who desires to live the "Victim-Holocaust" spirituality. Sado-masochism has no place here. Neither does a false or "pseudo=martyr" complex... it is truly one who desires to unite the sufferings with Jesus'; and to be a humble and absolute humble "victim-martyr"...the response of one who has sought spiritual direction in order to make this authentic, rather than some kinds of emotional/pseudo-mystical "show" (and there are, unfortunately, many out there...unbalanced individuals who want to make a "production"...but I digress)... God reveals His wonders amongst the lowliest and the undeserving...but we must always discern, with the mind and heart of our Holy Mother Church...and be obedient to Her Authority...even if we don't like it!
I too paused when he spoke about homosexuals as 'victim souls'.
I was also wondering if I could get someone's take on what he says around the 2:13 mark that a homosexual with that particular cross and all it entails is more intensely loved by God than most others.
Does God really love one person more than another? Having a particular cross that is special is one thing, I think, but I wonder is extending that to mean God loves some more than others is accurate.
Then again, I too have wondered about St. John as the beloved of Jesus--was he loved more than others?
I wanted to add too, Terry, that I appreciate your point about a potential naive undrstanding of the role of the sacrifice/penance necessary to fulfill the duties of one's state in life.
Was reading a bit about Marian consecration, Fatima and the notion of making reparation to the Immaculate Heart of Mary recently and the author (Fr. Nicholas Norman) quotes I believe Sr. Lucia as follows:
"The sacrifice required of every person is the fulfillment of his duties in life and the observance of My law. This is the penance that I now seek and require."
"Many persons feeling that the word penance implies great austerities, and not feeling that they have the strength for great sacrifices, become discouraged and continue a life of lukewarmness and sin."
I think there is great spiritual wisdom in taking up the crosses God fashions for us according to our state in life as opposed to seeking out 'great' penances, which could become sources of pride. The notion of the victim soul too, I think, can cause some anxiety who, if they themselves are not victim souls, may feel that their lives are somehow worthless since they are not capable of whatever it is that the victim soul bears for the Lord.
I don't discredit that there are victim souls; I just think that giving that title wholesale to one group of people or another rather than to individuals who have discerned such a call is problematic.
Hi Patrick - I'm not sure we can measure God's love. Perhaps Voris meant his statement in the same sense jesus told Faustina that the greater the sinner the greater his right to divine mercy - I can't recall the exact words.
The idea of a 'victim soul' has more to do with mystical theology, nevertheless, the life of reparation is meant for all Christians, especially those who carry a heavy cross in life.
Just to add another point in the "mix": in this day and age, with all the sexual confusion, the unbridled promiscuity, the broken families, the lack of proper formation of the young... sexual identity confusion is rampant. Bisexual activity and homosex become a means of "reparative" therapy, so to speak, among those who long to be loved, need to be loved...exercising a very basic human need (alas, without the proper moral grounding)... the confusion and perversion just muddies the waters. Someone who suffers (mightily, in some cases) from same-sex attraction and is involved genitally and wants "out of it" has a very difficult mountain to climb. Especially in this society. I just surmise (and I'm no expert) that one who heroically attempts to live a chaste life, after being involved sexually in same-sex situations, or has NOT been unchaste in action, but is literally "crucified" by same-sex temptations can be, and I say this with some hesitation, can be possibly considered a "victim-soul" if this individual is faithful to Christ, repents of any mortal sin, takes the measures to live a chaste life, and is willing to live "without"...in a "limbo", so to speak, for the sake of the love of Christ. That, to me, is a kind of white martyrdom; but so do heterosexual individuals who are single, some by choice, some by circumstance. The individual suffering from same-sex attraction, however, is also suffering from a deficit of proper love from parent/peer...this is different, in some respects, from one who is heterosexual, fairly balanced, and does not have this kind of "wound"...just some thoughts.
Please comment with charity and avoid ad hominem attacks. I exercise the right to delete comments I find inappropriate. If you use your real name there is a better chance your comment will stay put.
I've also seen this guy seriously saying we need to replace the US with a Catholic monarchy, and prattling on about the "perfidious Jews" and how they no longer worship Yahweh, but are a demonic sect.
ReplyDeletenice spin, Mercury.
ReplyDeleteThe USA *is* a(n elective) monarchy. Convert the country, and you'll have a Catholic monarchy. What are yous waiting for? Gerronwivit!
ReplyDeletethis was an excellent and concise explanation. i've shared the link with family & friends. thanks, ter.
ReplyDeleteberenike ... 'elective monarchy' I like that. I don't know if we're there yet, but Europe sure is.
ReplyDeleteTerry, I'm amused at your love/hate relationship with this dude. :)
ReplyDeleteSpoken very eloquently and seemingly, from the heart, by Mr. Voris S.T.B. Victim soul? Hmmmm.
ReplyDeleteAce, we ought to chill. You're fantastic.
ReplyDeleteAll of us, married, celibate, homosexual, single against their own desires...all of us...suffer with the reality that this life, on earth, does NOT fulfill our deepest desires...all of us; there is no heaven on earth; nope.
ReplyDeleteThe one who suffers from same-sex attraction and lives a life faithful to our Lord Jesus Christ is going to receive a greater crown in this life and in the next for loving Jesus above all and turning their lives over to Him;
M. Voris gives such a compassionate and realistic description of this.
Chaste friendship, love for another without selfish interest(homosex cannot fulfill anyone...it is basically masturbatory...also, I must say in contraceptive heterosexual sex), an ability to share in our Lord's "desolation" and "abandonment" is NOT something to be despised; it is a particular gift and call to participate in the sufferings of Jesus, our true Love, the One Who abandoned Himself completely to the Father, bleeding, naked, absolutely alone...He is our Life, our Salvation, our All.
Those with same-sex attraction who cleave to Him may know a holiness and joy that married people, with the joys of married life, might not know in this life...
maybe...it might just be.
Jesus choses his victim souls as his brides.
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure if people with same sex attraction were ever predestined to have these inclinations. Just as God did not create man to be obese the origin of same sex attractions are still unexplained. As a Courage member I find the term "victim soul" a bit too flattering and perhaps undeserved.
Thopas
Thopas - I have a feeling the victim soul thing from Voris is the result of a deficiency in understanding redemptive suffering and penance - or at least a misuse of the term 'victim' as it applies to gay men. Gay people certainly do not need the idea of being a victim soul applied to their situation since the whole concept of being a misunderstood minority and marginalized by society is key to their protest - and queerly - crucial to the elitistism they cultivate.
ReplyDeleteVoris may have over-reached with the victim soul bit - we have only one victim, one mediator - Christ. Souls who suffer in witness to the Gospel participate in the sufferings of Christ, and can make up for what is lacking - but victim terminology is inapprpriate for gay people and suggests a 'special' spirituality for gay people trying to be chaste. Not so much!
That said - bridal terminology is ALWAYS used in an analogous sense - read St. John of the Cross. God forbid a sexual dimension is added to this gay crap.
And never - ever - be 'flattered' by the idea of 'victim' soul.
I just to have to add this:
ReplyDeleteif "victim soul", properly understood and applied, as one who suffers from a horrible "outside" affliction (and many same-sex people feel this way, yeah?), especially if it is the result of abuse, the lack of love from the father/mother, the inordinate love of father/mother, the individual suffering from same-sex attraction, as a victim, could, in fact, be searching for the love/acceptance/affirmation of whatever he/she is needing in an in appropriate/immoral sexual/genital relationship. Once this is identified and dealt with, we no longer are dealing with "homosex" in any of its forms...we're dealing with "deprivation neurosis"...'ala' Dr. Conrad Baars...his daughter, Suzanne, is doing this therapy this very day.
Thanks Father - It's all over my head and perhaps a bit too psychologized and studied for me to get into - God bless Suzanne.
ReplyDeleteWhatever.
My point is that the mystical definition of victim soul can't be applied to this and Voris was mistaken with the terminology. At best his is a naive undrstanding of the role of the sacrifice/penance necessary to fulfill the duties of one's state in life.
The sufferings of homosexuals attempting to live the Christian life cannot be elevated above the ordinary sufferings heterosexual persons endure to preserve chastity and remain faithful to the commandments.
That said, social stigma and discrimination because of sexual orientation and the corresponding difficulties add an extra degree of suffering for the gay person - chaste or unchaste - endured in charity and patience, these matters may contribute to the sanctification of those who suffer them.
In spiritual direction gay people should always be instructed to reject any and every notion of being a victim. Psychological diagnosis and therapy should always be left up to the qualified professionals.
I agree, Terry.
ReplyDeleteIt is always "Jesus-Victim" Who must absolutely be the focus of any kind of spirituality that is based in one who has been abused or one who desires to live the "Victim-Holocaust" spirituality.
Sado-masochism has no place here.
Neither does a false or "pseudo=martyr" complex...
it is truly one who desires to unite the sufferings with Jesus'; and to be a humble and absolute humble "victim-martyr"...the response of one who has sought spiritual direction in order to make this authentic, rather than some kinds of emotional/pseudo-mystical "show" (and there are, unfortunately, many out there...unbalanced individuals who want to make a "production"...but I digress)...
God reveals His wonders amongst the lowliest and the undeserving...but we must always discern, with the mind and heart of our Holy Mother Church...and be obedient to Her Authority...even if we don't like it!
I too paused when he spoke about homosexuals as 'victim souls'.
ReplyDeleteI was also wondering if I could get someone's take on what he says around the 2:13 mark that a homosexual with that particular cross and all it entails is more intensely loved by God than most others.
Does God really love one person more than another? Having a particular cross that is special is one thing, I think, but I wonder is extending that to mean God loves some more than others is accurate.
Then again, I too have wondered about St. John as the beloved of Jesus--was he loved more than others?
I really don't know.
I wanted to add too, Terry, that I appreciate your point about a potential naive undrstanding of the role of the sacrifice/penance necessary to fulfill the duties of one's state in life.
ReplyDeleteWas reading a bit about Marian consecration, Fatima and the notion of making reparation to the Immaculate Heart of Mary recently and the author (Fr. Nicholas Norman) quotes I believe Sr. Lucia as follows:
"The sacrifice required of every person is the fulfillment of his duties in life and the observance of My law. This is the penance that I now seek and require."
"Many persons feeling that the word penance implies great austerities, and not feeling that they have the strength for great sacrifices, become discouraged and continue a life of lukewarmness and sin."
I think there is great spiritual wisdom in taking up the crosses God fashions for us according to our state in life as opposed to seeking out 'great' penances, which could become sources of pride. The notion of the victim soul too, I think, can cause some anxiety who, if they themselves are not victim souls, may feel that their lives are somehow worthless since they are not capable of whatever it is that the victim soul bears for the Lord.
I don't discredit that there are victim souls; I just think that giving that title wholesale to one group of people or another rather than to individuals who have discerned such a call is problematic.
Hi Patrick - I'm not sure we can measure God's love. Perhaps Voris meant his statement in the same sense jesus told Faustina that the greater the sinner the greater his right to divine mercy - I can't recall the exact words.
ReplyDeleteThe idea of a 'victim soul' has more to do with mystical theology, nevertheless, the life of reparation is meant for all Christians, especially those who carry a heavy cross in life.
Just to add another point in the "mix":
ReplyDeletein this day and age, with all the sexual confusion, the unbridled promiscuity, the broken families, the lack of proper formation of the young...
sexual identity confusion is rampant.
Bisexual activity and homosex become a means of "reparative" therapy, so to speak, among those who long to be loved, need to be loved...exercising a very basic human need (alas, without the proper moral grounding)...
the confusion and perversion just muddies the waters.
Someone who suffers (mightily, in some cases) from same-sex attraction and is involved genitally and wants "out of it" has a very difficult mountain to climb.
Especially in this society.
I just surmise (and I'm no expert) that one who heroically attempts to live a chaste life, after being involved sexually in same-sex situations, or has NOT been unchaste in action, but is literally "crucified" by same-sex temptations can be, and I say this with some hesitation, can be possibly considered a "victim-soul" if this individual is faithful to Christ, repents of any mortal sin, takes the measures to live a chaste life, and is willing to live "without"...in a "limbo", so to speak, for the sake of the love of Christ.
That, to me, is a kind of white martyrdom; but so do heterosexual individuals who are single, some by choice, some by circumstance.
The individual suffering from same-sex attraction, however, is also suffering from a deficit of proper love from parent/peer...this is different, in some respects, from one who is heterosexual, fairly balanced, and does not have this kind of "wound"...just some thoughts.
Thanks Father - you make excellent points. The victim soul thing makes sense - I just hate the term. :)
ReplyDelete