Monday, June 06, 2011

Kevorkian's art.



Commenter ck suggested I Google Dr. Kevorkian's art...
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Try it yourself and see what you think.
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"His work tended toward the grotesque; he sometimes painted with his own blood, and had created pictures such as one "of a child eating the flesh off a decomposing corpse."  Of his known works, six were made available in the 1990s for print release. The Ariana Gallery in Royal Oak, Michigan is the exclusive distributor of Kevorkian's artwork. The original oil prints are not for release." - Wikipedia
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In the 1960's Dr. Jack Kevorkian enrolled in an adult education oil painting class in Pontiac, Michigan. He combined his understanding of the human anatomy with his fascination with death and created, as author Michael Betzold describes in his book Appointment with Doctor Death, 18 canvases that "are as bold and strident, as critical and unforgiving, as pointed and dramatic as Kevorkian's own fighting words. They are strikingly well-executed, stark and surreal --and frightening, demented and/or hilarious, depending on one's point of view." - Frontline

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Interestingly, Kevorkian never considered himself an artist.
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Art shown:  For he Is Raised.  Kevorkian's narrative:  "The annual resurrection by dumb bunnies of a pathetic, despairing, almost scorned image of the purported divinity is hardly noticeable amid the tawdry paraphernalia of irresistible paganism at its vernal orgy. It is a spectacle badly conceived, badly manipulated, and superbly desecrated by those hare-brained disciples of Mammon, who, with armfuls of brilliant multi-colored eggs and gleeful joy, framed in parade-stopping millinery, might, in a rare pseudo-pious mood briefly condescend to acknowledge some sort of disquieting mystery pervading it all. Such is the perfunctory Easter of modern western society which seems to have lost appreciation for anachronisms like rods and staffs and angels and lambs."
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I think Kevorkian must have been a very bitter, hateful man who hated God and humanity.

53 comments:

  1. Even his art kills.

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  2. "I think Kevorkian must have been a very bitter, hateful man who hated God and humanity."

    I completely agree Terry. Poor man.

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  3. Anonymous6:28 PM

    Wow ... just ... wow.

    So terribly, terribly sad - may God have mercy on him.

    Chloesmom

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  4. http://gokyo.tuzikaze.com/SinisterArt/p-07.html

    Mr. Kevorkian kept his work in the public arena and plied his trade amongst others of his kind.

    Catechism was not his, neither were prayers on his behalf when he was born and throughout his life.

    We lay people fail when there are Jack Kavorkians.

    The link above is the grotesque diabolical artwork introduced by Princes of Holy Mother Church.

    Pray for the Holy Father.

    H/T Ars orandi: commenter Gemma

    *

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  5. " ...and lead all souls to heaven
    especially those in most need of thy mercy."

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  6. Miss Julie,

    Don't forget:

    "O my God, I believe, I adore, I hope and I love You, and I beg pardon for all who do not believe, do not adore, do not hope and do not love you."

    Thank you for correcting me.

    *

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  7. @St Michael Come to our Defense ~

    MT 26:11, MK 14:7, JN 12:8 "...the poor you will always have with you."

    What makes you think those verses apply only to the financially poor? These verses apply to Kevorkian more so than they do the the popular starving people...anywhere.

    It is not that we lay people fail; it is that people such as him refuse to receive, and no amount of evangelization will ever overcome the free will of those who refuse it.

    We might as well say there will always be Kevorkians among us...such as Hitler, Stalin and Steinem -types to undermine humanity.

    Why are you all "shocked" at his "art"? He died as he "lived" and the man clearly never really lived for he chose to drag himself to Hell through the souls he claimed to assist.

    That's why we pray Divine Mercy for him through clenched teeth and bloody tongues.

    Forgive my lisp. I don't have a tongue anymore. I've been praying for the poor like Kevorkian and Bin Ladin and failing miserably; no pretense at holiness here.

    Hope some of you are more successful.

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  8. "...That's why we pray Divine Mercy for him through clenched teeth and bloody tongues..."

    We must pray with humble and contrite hearts.

    Otherwise we are losers.

    *

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  9. "...That's why we pray Divine Mercy for him through clenched teeth and bloody tongues..."

    We must pray with humble and contrite hearts.

    Otherwise we are losers.

    *

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  10. SMCTOD ~ Thank you for being so holy in our presence and offering such holy explanation. I hope we can all live up to it with our bleeding tongues and clenched teeth. If that doesn't lead to humility and true contrition, I don't know what will.

    Maybe one day we can all be as sanguine as you.

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  11. Patience is a virtue.

    It is sad to pray for someone and see that person fail; sad not because of their failure, but because some of those that were supposed to be praying on their behalf said

    "Aha! I knew they would fail!"

    Praying with clenched teeth and bloody tongues is actually a curse upon those being 'prayed' for.

    I hope you are not praying for children.

    *

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  12. SMCTOD ~ Human beings aren't robots and I'm interested in being honest. Yes, I pray for my enemies (or our enemies, as it were), and you know what? Because I'm a human being it's really HARD to do that sometimes, but I do it because it's not just about the prayer, but what that conversation with God does to change our hearts as well. Prayer changes us, helps us to overcome anger and hate and other mere passions and emotions.

    Have you ever prayed the psalms? Have you seen the humanity within them or do you read them robotically?

    Especially the deprecatory psalms; they can be prayed as well, although they are not part of communal prayer, only private. They are just as much the Word of God than anything else. Therin you will find there is a very long tradition of very holy people praying with bleeding tongues and clenched teeth.

    But perhaps you don't suffer from human emotion because you are far holier than the rest of us. So be it! I'm happy for you in your stoicness, but I will probably never advance to that because my temperament is different than yours.

    Glad God understands these differences and accepts our prayers even when we struggle to pray.

    I defer to you your stoic-ness.

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  13. @SMCTOD - One wonders, for the sake of sinners how many messy, muddled and imperfect prayers of the imperfect faithful soul reach the ears of the holy men and women of God and indeed the ears of our God Himself and are answered? I have to think not a few. I also have to think how truly efficacious such prayers are not in spite of our flesh but in some sense because of our flesh, flesh which cries out sometimes indignantly and importunely but cry out it does in all its imperfection because it does ultimately care for the lost, because it does ultimately seek to be obedient if imperfectly so.

    Does God really answer only the prayers of the perfectly humble, the perfectly contrite heart? I say No for no one would be saved, ever. The Psalmist cries out for a humble and contrite heart not because he possesses one but because he does not. God hears that imperfect prayer that desires perfection. If God who is holy and who asks us to be holy like he is did not hear the prayer of the unholy, the unrighteous no one would ever experience his Grace but that *is* Grace.

    Having now read any number of lives of Saints, including more recently lived lives, I see how many of these souls who have been officially declared by the Church to be holy had less than perfect lives and prayed less than perfect prayers for themselves let alone others and were heard by God. One only needs to pick up the recent, 2007, published private writings of Mother Teresa, "Come Be My Light" to see just how often the prayers of His imperfect ones have been heard and answered by Grace including when they didn't know it and even doubted because of their own dark night of the soul.

    So, far better that in obedience and in spite of or even because of any current anger or hurt or pride or weakness that I am experiencing that I pray for a soul rather than not pray for a soul until I can somehow attain perfection of humility and contriteness - dear God, by then it may be too late (I speak that last phrase hyperbolically).

    [Sheesh, Terry, I should just get a blog eh.]

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  14. Pray.

    Pray like you mean it.

    Don't stain your prayers with self-pity.

    *

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  15. Dear SMCTOD,
    "Don't stain your prayers with self-pity."

    Not sure I follow. You are addressing me? You are insinuating that somehow my prayers are stained with self pity? Or, you are simply observing the obvious applied in a general way?

    But yes, just pray and pray like you mean it seems to me to be what others in the combox have been saying from the start.

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  16. SMCTOD ~ Who said anything about self-pity? That's quite presumptious of you to suggest.

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  17. This is a great blog; it has helped many of us.

    Lets say three Hail Marys for Mr. Nelson today, and not forget about michael r.

    *

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  18. Anonymous1:56 PM

    Yes Adoro--I find it very hard indded to pray for certain people, especially those who seem to derive some kind of peverse joy in downriding everything I do and making me feel small...

    But I have to remember that God loves them just as much as He loves me...

    I ask the Angels, Saints, and Our Blessed Mother to pray along with me, sometimes it is all I can do to choke out a Hail Mary, and yeah with tears and fear and often the two year old tantrum "Why??? Let the nuns and brothers inthe monasteries pray for this person.."

    But bit by bit, day by day, it does become easier, not easy, easier..like going to the dentist.

    Sara (aka 3 puddytats)

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  19. Sara ~ Yes, that's exactly what I wrote in a blog post several days ago and why we pray for enemies even though it's hard.

    (btw I don't think going to the dentist ever gets easier, or to the doctor for the yearly, etc.) We do things because we must, not because it gets easier. It is in doing what is hard that makes us holy. Praying for enemies isn't supposed to necessarily be easy, but yes, it can become easier. And some days, maybe more so than others.

    We grow in virtue by doing difficult things because a virtue is a holy habit. If it's easy, we already maybe have that particular virtue. But the, we have to be careful because the moment we become prideful, we fall and lose that virtue.

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  20. The Priest9:32 AM

    Judging by his actions, his art, and his teachings, I would have to say he was quite possibly possessed by the evil one. If not that, he was surely terrorized by him. We must pray for him.

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  21. How could Dr. Kevorkian have hated God if he didn't believe in God? How can you hate something you don't believe in? And which god are we talking about? The Judeo-Christian god? THe ancient Greek gods? There are a million different gods you could believe in and the one you happen to believe in is because of where you were born.

    I never met Dr. Kevorkian, but his friends described him as a kind, compassionate, and loving man (if a bit intense and difficult at times). Don't you think they would know better? He cared deeply about humanity and human rights. And as for his artwork, it was meant to comment on society.

    Get your facts straight and think a bit before throwing your mantra about sin and God around. Go to my blog and read my post about him and maybe you'll see more to him.

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  22. Um, let's look at that painting: cross, Easter egg, resurrection...I'm pretty sure he knew which God he was attacking.

    Most of Kevorkian's victims had no terminal illness. He was named Dr. Death by his colleagues because he did a study photographing the eyes of people as they died and he wanted to do live operations on death-row prisoners. The man had a death fetish.

    http://www.osvdailytake.com/2011/06/harsh-truth-about-dr-kevorkian.html

    http://www.lifenews.com/2011/06/05/media-obituaries-on-jack-kevorkian-use-revisionist-history/

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  23. In those paintings he wasn't attacking God but rather how traditions have gotten skewed over the years. And anyway he didn't believe that your god existed. And if he does exist and is almighty, then he can forgive the paintings of one little man.

    And I have read just about everything about Kevorkian and by Kevorkian, so I already know about the eye study. He did it WITH PERMISSION of the patients and families. The idea was to determine the exact moment of death in order to aid forensic science (which helps bring violent criminals to justice) as well as to determine how viable organs are for donation. Just because this makes you uncomfortable doesn't negate the goodness of this study.

    As for the experiments on death row inmates, he wanted to do it WITH THEIR PERMISSION under HEAVY anesthesia. He wanted to do it with terminally ill patients who sought euthanasia as well. I would do it in that situation. Why shouldn't my death benefit the living?

    And when you say his patients weren't terminally ill, do you mean that they weren't going to die in, say, 6 months but instead, say, 3 years? In any case, he would only accept people who were of sound mind and whose disease had no hope for recovery. How much longer they could have gone on for in that condition is another issue. But people with Lou Gehrig's can live several years in a paralyzed body. What kind of life is that? If someone wants to live that way, that's their right. I probably wouldn't.

    Despite what you think, he rejected about 98% of people who came to him and always said, "Are you sure you want to do this" when he was about to hook up his suicide machine. In an interview, he spoke about one particular case where he asked a man, "Do you really want to do this?" and the man changed his mind. He said, "No." So Dr. Kevorkian packed up and left.

    Nearly all the families of Dr. Kevorkian's patients were very grateful to him and some kept in touch with him over the years. Read Carol Loving's My Son, My Sorrow to see how torturous Lou Gehrig's disease was for a young man and how Dr. Kevorkian's intervention ended that suffering in a quiet and peaceful manner.

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  24. "And if he does exist and is almighty, then he can forgive the paintings of one little man."

    If he is god, then of necessity yes, he can forgive the paintings yet if he is god then of necessity he is also just and so Jack would have to seek to be forgiven and maybe he did though it seems unlikely.

    word verification; "relie"

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  25. Wow, what a tyrant, to demand that people apologize for making paintings mocking him instead of laughing it off (and that's not what Kevorkian was doing anyway). Sorry, it isn't just to condemn people to hell for such petty things.

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  26. Dr. Mengele was his mentor, I take it.

    Nobody but God has the right to determine when someone dies.

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  27. See, here's the problem. Nazi doctors did their sick experiments and so forth on these people without anesthesia and, more importantly, WITHOUT THEIR CONSENT.

    So you think that somebody who is in excruciating pain with no hope for recovery should not be allowed to die? I am sorry that your god is such a tyrant that he thinks this is right, and I'm sorry that your religion has so polluted your mind that your only response in debating is to bring up a god that you have no evidence for. And it's just because of where you are born that you believe in Jesus. If you were born in Afghanistan, you would believe in Allah. If you were born in classical Greece, you would believe in Zeus and Apollo. And you would be saying those gods were the right ones and those are the ones who have the final say in everything.

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  28. “…Dr. Kevorkian's intervention ended that suffering in a quiet and peaceful manner…’

    Expiate.

    Look that up in your scientific journals.

    When Simon went home to gather the eggs at his chicken farm, he found they were brilliant, multicolored.

    He gathered them, and knew they were a gift from the Lord for his hard work.

    Saint Mary Magdalene looked for Christ in the garden after His resurrection.

    A melding of the facts has given us Easter egg hunts for children to coincide with Christ’s resurrection.

    Depravity makes us look upon beauty and Truth with diabolical eyes.

    His depravity was lack of love; he caricatured love by acting nice, and caring….

    Sometimes God allows us to expiate our sins by physical suffering when we are to die.

    No one ever dies of cancer. Or of a car wreck. They died while they had cancer, or were involved in a car crash.

    We die when the graces and sins allowed for our lives comes to an end.

    People in favor of ending suffering simply are mistaken in their opinions.

    *

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  29. So you think that people should be forced to suffer?

    And anyway you talk about God deciding when it's time for someone to die. If that were the case, then you should be against all doctors. Every time a doctor gives someone antibiotics, for example, he's interfering with a natural process that allegedly God wanted them to go through.

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  30. Everyone since Adam and Eve has known God is God.

    Some have chosen simply to ignore that fact.

    Just like most people do today.

    Today's Christ haters are no different than the Pharaohs and so on, that chose to war against God and His Christ, and to create their own false gods.

    They even go so far as conjure demons for their hatred of God.

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  31. How do you know that Christ is the "true" god? How do you know it's not one of the millions of other gods that exist? Do you realize that you would worship a different god if you were born somewhere else? Can you really not see that?

    I don't believe in god. How can I hate something I don't believe in?

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  32. "...How can I hate something I don't believe in?..."

    Yes, how can you. But certainly you do.

    And when you have no room for God in your heart, Satan enters, whether you want him to or not.

    You are caught in a trap.

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  33. tyranny derives from a capricious nature (some animals are more equal than others) however a god who is capricious is not of necessity (by nature) god. a god who is god is of necessity Love and Love is just and demands and offers justice without prejudice.

    if you would like examples of tyrannical leaders look to those who said there is no god, you'll find plenty from the last century.

    God recommends all souls to heaven. The soul condemns itself, not God.

    word verification "prowd" - what a hoot.

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  34. You are caught in a trap- of superstition.

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  35. Sorry, a God that makes you feel guilty for not being perfect is a schmuck. He's like a kid holding a magnifying glass over an ant.

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  36. You don't know, un-equivically know there is no god, you believe there is no god based on what you believe to be rational proofs but you don't know.

    Anyway, we'll both find out when this life is over who or what is right and true and, as C.S. Lewis put it, if you are right you've lost nothing and we God believers will be shown out to be the schmucks you think we are but if you are wrong, (and I paraphrase) dude, you'll be one New Yorker with a lot in his face and for a very, very long time based on having rejected (held the magnifying glass over your own head) the love offered.

    You can't have justice without love or love without justice but carry on as you please.

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  37. In Your Face New Yorker ~ You are operating in this conversation out of several false premises.

    You have assumed that the location of birth determines religion. Do you really believe that? If so, how do you explain Afghan Christians, Iraqi Christians, Saudi Christians, Egyptian Christians, Indian Christians, Chinese Christians...etc.?

    Further, have you never heard of someone converting from one major religion to another? It happens every time.

    Maybe you should let the "birthright religion" assumption go because it has no merit and is just a strawman in this discussion anyway.

    Secondly, you came onto an obviously-Catholic Christian blog and you expect...what? Wiccan beliefs to be professed? You seem to be shocked that Catholics and those of other Christian beliefs would hold to their own beliefs and values.

    What makes you think you have a RIGHT to come into this forum and spew venom and insults when the commentary and post are actually looking for Kervorkian's eternal salvation, no matter how much we disagree with him?

    So really, your entire argument here makes no sense for you are attacking us for wanting eternal good for your buddy.

    Do you really want to argue against us willing his eternal good? Really?

    Thirdly, we as Catholics ascribe to particular moral beliefs that apply to us as well as to everyone else. You are free to disagree, however, you are overstepping your bounds in coming in to throw around weird accusations about our "mythology" and "superstition" when you haven't once provided any kind of OBJECTIVE yardstick for your beliefs.

    Your sole "argument" here, if it can be called that, is your familiarity with Kevorkian's life and writings, of which you SUBJECTIVELY approve with no basis in anything outside yourself other than the man we think did great evil in this world, and when we refused to agree with you, you have resorted only to ad hominem attacks against our beliefs, which you clearly don't understand and haven't even bothered to research in your alleged enlightenment.

    Are you looking for productive discussion or is your main interested in being the King of Trolls?

    You decide. I, for one, will waste no more time with you. You clearly aren't interested anything productive here.

    I will your eternal good anyway, even though you reject and insult our Christian beliefs. You have the right to do that. I have the right to respond differently than you.

    God bless you, even though you don't believe in Him and come across as a complete jerk. You are certainly no evangelist for your own brand of "religion".

    Maybe you could change your style a bit and be more...human?

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  38. I don't unequivocally believe that there is no god. I also don't unequivocally believe that there are no fairies. In both cases, someone has made a claim and I am rejecting it based on lack of evidence.

    Pascal's wager doesn't work either. Many religions claim that if you don't follow theirs, then you're going to hell. In that case, it's arbitrary to pick the Christian religion as the one to argue that I should believe "just in case."

    I'm not doing ad hominem attacks. There is a difference between attacking someone's beliefs and attacking the person.

    I don't have an objective yardstick for my beliefs? And you do? Yours are entirely based on faith in a book that was written 2000 years ago.

    As far as I'm concerned, this is the only life we have (until objective evidence proves otherwise) and for that reason it is the best for us to make it a good one.

    It is true, there are sometimes converts and there are sometimes Christians in Muslim countries and vice versa, but those are the exceptions, not the rules. Most of the time, whatever religion you believe in is the one you were brought up to believe in.

    In the end, I really couldn't care less what you think of Kevorkian. Rather, I am just frustrated that so many people come to decisions about morality not based on the well being of human beings but about whether the man in the sky likes what he sees.

    And you're right, I'm not an evangelist for my own brand of "religion" because I am not an evangelist and I have no religion.

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  39. IYFNY~ Yeah I know I said I wouldn't waste any more time but I'm still awake so what the heck.

    1.You're still making assumptions about us. No one brought up Paschal's Wager or mentioned atheism - that was your offering. Thanks for undermining your credibility even more. Not that you had any at all beyond your 2nd post.

    2. Your attacks upon our religion and beliefs are certainly ad hominem. Wikipedia defines it as thus: "An ad hominem (Latin: "to the man"), short for argumentum ad hominem, is an attempt to link the truth of a claim to a negative characteristic or belief of the person advocating it."

    "Ad hominem" is not an attack against the person per se, but..read the definition. Let me enter the evidence from your comments:


    Wow, what a tyrant, to demand that people apologize for making paintings mocking him instead of laughing it off (and that's not what Kevorkian was doing anyway). Sorry, it isn't just to condemn people to hell for such petty things

    your god is such a tyrant that he thinks this is right, and I'm sorry that your religion has so polluted your mind that your only response in debating is to bring up a god that you have no evidence for. And it's just because of where you are born that you believe in Jesus. If you were born in Afghanistan, you would believe in Allah. If you were born in classical Greece, you would believe in Zeus and Apollo. And you would be saying those gods were the right ones and those are the ones who have the final say in everything. Partially recanted but yes, total Ad hominem


    So you think that people should be forced to suffer?

    And anyway you talk about God deciding when it's time for someone to die. If that were the case, then you should be against all doctors. Every time a doctor gives someone antibiotics, for example, he's interfering with a natural process that allegedly God wanted them to go through
    response based on Ad hominem and containing Ad Hominem

    You are caught in a trap- of superstition. Ad hominem

    Sorry, a God that makes you feel guilty for not being perfect is a schmuck. He's like a kid holding a magnifying glass over an ant. Ad hominem

    ...you really want me to finish? You, New Yorker dude, have absolutely no argument whatsoever and further, you are demanding something that was beyond the scope of this post, that being an extrapolation of our entire belief system.

    Either stand down or bring a real argument. You continue to come across as a troll and a complete jerk with nothing to actually discuss as you have nothing to actually SAY.

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  40. New Yorker Guy Whose Face I'm In Right Now ~ Your entire problem is that you're making shit up about a religion you don't even pretend to understand, and then you're using your own personal fiction as a foundation of your own position.

    You're full of it and the only position you have has you standing on the "poop" deck in the most literal of translations. Perhaps you should get out of the outhouse and not make yourself kin to the Old Testament king Ahaziah the prophet Elijah made fun of when he fell into his own refuse..which is exactly what you have done here.

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  41. "Anyway, we'll both find out when this life is over who or what is right and true and, as C.S. Lewis put it, if you are right you've lost nothing and we God believers will be shown out to be the schmucks you think we are but if you are wrong, (and I paraphrase) dude, you'll be one New Yorker with a lot in his face and for a very, very long time based on having rejected (held the magnifying glass over your own head) the love offered."

    Sounds like Pascal's Wager to me.

    And all the comments that you listed as ad hominem are not ad hominem-- at least not any more than what you said to me. I don't get personally offended if you criticize my beliefs. Frustrated, not offended. It seems you guys get personally offended.

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  42. My own personal fiction? Huh?

    And just for the record, I'm a woman, not a man.

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  43. INFNY ~ You have done to us what no one here has done to you: none of us has called your beliefs "superstitious" or called your own god or lack therof "a tyrant" yet you felt free to come here and say such terrible things, things we don't believe and in fact, by our own practices, defy your accusations.

    Ma'am, stand down. You are a fiction writer attacking Christians with your own definition of Christianity not based in any actual fact. Your comments reveal that you do NOT know what we believe or WHY and you have further revealed by your attacks and attacking use of language that you have no interest in actually LEARNING what we believe.

    Clearly you are afraid that if you actually open up your gray matter to what we believe, you may be converted. My job is not to convert you. But, speaking for myself, I will defend our faith from attacks such as those you brought through your outright and seemingly willful ignorance. You are free to make your own decisions, but do not for one minute think you can come into a Catholic forum, call our God a "Tyrant", call us "superstitious" or our beliefs "mythology" and expect me to cowtow to your venom.

    I can handle criticism, and any of us can. But what you have done is brought an outright attack with no logical basis or discussion. Therefore, I AM offended, as are others here, and we have a RIGHT to be as you clearly don't know the difference between discussion and attack.

    You clearly only know how to attack, and you have put ALL of us here upon the offense, then have the balls to backhandedly accuse us of being defensive????

    REALLY?

    Yup. You sure are living your own fiction. (BTW, I'm a woman, too).

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  44. Personally I am not offended. You have definitely done both the straw man and the ad hom deal but they don't personally offend me or make me even close to being angry. The typical misconceptions and assumptions about the Christian faith you express while touting your own subjective reasoning and avoidance of direct challeges hardly offend. And yes, I did raise Pascal's wager when I paraphrased C.S.Lewis you have that much correct. Cheers.

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  46. "INFNY ~ You have done to us what no one here has done to you: none of us has called your beliefs "superstitious" or called your own god or lack therof "a tyrant" yet you felt free to come here and say such terrible things, things we don't believe and in fact, by our own practices, defy your accusations."

    I never said you couldn't do those things.

    Okay, fine, explain why you believe what you believe.

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  47. INFNY ~ Ha! Are you serious? Do you have 2,000 years?

    If you have serious questions, ask them of solid Catholics who live their faith because they actually KNOW it and can provide the resources.

    This isn't the venue; not in a combox. But if you are serious, then ask questions offline. My own email is linked to my blog profile. I think Terry's is, too (our dear host in this thread). If you want independent resources, any of us here can provide them (I think Terry links them in his sidebar..?)

    If you really have questions, ask.

    Truly.

    You say you "never said we couldn't do those things" with regard to calling your own beliefs "superstitions" or calling your deity terrible names.

    Um...that's not something Christians do. We wouldn't consider it because it is illogical. You are free to believe what you want to believe. We may believe you are wrong, but just the same, you have a right to believe it. (That doesn't stop us from evangelizing you, but evangelization is an invitation, not a series of attacks against your beliefs. Bad "Christians" have given evangelization a bad name)

    None of us here has any desire to attack your beliefs or belittle them. Quite to the contrary; usually when people become Catholic, they and we recognize what is good about their past and how God worked within it.

    So...did you seriously think we'd WANT to condemn you personally and call you such terrible names as "superstitious" and "tyrant"?

    Why?

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  48. IYFNY--I only have some thing to mention here, because honestly, I don't think anything i can say will change your mind, nor do i think you will change mine.

    But in one of your comments above you said "Sorry,a God that makes you feel guilty for not being perfect is a Schmuck." God does not make me feel guilty for not being perfect--in fact, it's quite the opposite. He offers me reconciliation. That's so much more than a judicial forgiveness. He offers us the opportunity not just to "escape damnation", but the opportunity to become perfect, to become holy.

    The life of Grace isn't about God making us feel guilty--he doesn't do that, we do that. Rather, the life of grace is Gods offering us the opportunity to participate in his own life, here and in eternity.

    Since you do not believe in the same religion as I do, you won't really care about the distinction. And really, why should you? But I would like to be able to communicate to you that it's not about guilt--it's about life, being loved in a way that makes the most intense human expressions of love pale beside it.

    We are not Catholic Christians because of guilt-especially not guilt over being imperfect--we are Catholic Christians because God has reconciled all things in Christ, and we are offered the chance to participate in the mystery of his life, and the internal life and love of the Holy Trinity through the Divine Indwelling.

    I don't have the time to explain this well, but you can Google it.

    God bless you, and I hope you have a good evening.

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  49. Adoro,

    If a Guardian Angel drags someone to us, we are not to chastise and beat that poor soul.

    We need to give that soul spiritual drink and eat, little by little, slowly that the nourishment not overcome him, rather that the nourishment bring him back to life

    For your consideration:

    [31] In the mean time the disciples prayed him, saying: Rabbi, eat. [32] But he said to them: I have meat to eat, which you know not. [33] The disciples therefore said one to another: Hath any man brought him to eat? [34] Jesus saith to them: My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, that I may perfect his work. [35] Do you not say, There are yet four months, and then the harvest cometh? Behold, I say to you, lift up your eyes, and see the countries; for they are white already to harvest.

    Souls is what Christ wants.

    He will lift all men unto Him; sometimes, as he did with Saint Simon, He asks us to help.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoTvIB_31sg

    Adoro, our Mother loves him more than she loves us. She will weep should he be condemned to Hell; let us give him spiritual food and prayers on his behalf and for those similarly situated.

    I don’t want to be ashamed when I visit our Mother in the garden of her Rosary.

    *

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  50. I find Dr. Kevorkian to be an innovator and a very courageous man. To put himself through all of that to bring to the attention of anyone who cares to listen that maybe the best thing for someone is to just let them go. If they need a little help then so be it, let them get help for themselves to end their misery. They have a choice, and maybe their choice doesn't involve living on in misery and suffering for who knows how many more years. Dr Kevorkian brought to the attention of countless numbers of people, that if someone if suffering to the point that they don't want to live or can't live anymore, that assisted suicide or something alongs those lines with a strong set of guidelines needs to be taken as a legitimate argument.

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  51. You don't "earn your way into heaven." Everyone is imperfect, a sin is a sin no matter how big or small YOU judge it to be. If you think bad thoughts about someone, you are imperfect and need to be saved. If you have a patient who is in excruciating pain so you think it would be nice to help them end life painlessly, you are imperfect. If you rape a child, you are imperfect.

    And because YOU are not perfect, YOU don't get to judge which one of those is worse. We're all equally imperfect and we're all equally at the mercy of God.

    You are on the same level as Dr. Kevorkian and Hitler and me and the popes and Mother Theresa and every other person in the world, past, present and future, no matter how "good" or "bad" you think they are: You are a human. God is God. You are not holy. God is. The end.

    I spent all day today taking care of an old man in a psych ward who plead insanity after raping many children. That is a horrible thing to do and he said he still gets the urge, even though he's been locked up for years. But rather than vomiting out a bunch of Bible verses at him, I showed him the light by continuing to be kind to him, getting to know him, and taking care of his mental and physical health the best I could.

    He was a very kind, smart man whom I really enjoyed spending time with. He reminded me of my Grandpa, sans the pedophilia. I never would have known about his pedophilia if he wasn't honest about it. He was horrified of himself and suffering from a tremendous amount of guilt and disgust. It was so sad listening to his story; sad for the children and so sad for him. Don't get me wrong- of course I judged him. But I don't think I'm any better than he is. And I hope I see him in Heaven, healed, happy, pure again.

    None of that makes a difference. Everyone's disgusting in some way or another, we're humans. Just like every abusive, self-righteous, goody two-shoes, racist, rude, ignorant, murdering, stealing, cocaine-snorting, homosexual, heterosexual, transsexual, polygamous, dishonest, nice, friendly, (you name it), CHILD OF GOD that I absolutely LOVE to take care of every day! With a big smile, a bigger sense of humor, and an attempt to be as close to Jesus as I possibly can.

    ...BUT also a sense of reality that I will never even come close, so I settle for hoping he'll cut me some slack since I really do try.

    Now quit blog-bragging about who's better at thumping their bible and go do something USEFUL for God, like hanging out with some lonely old people in a long-term care facility or fixing cleft palates for a month or something.

    (I realize that i just judged all of you for bragging about praying, but I really feel like it needs to be said. It's a conundrum. Maybe throw a prayer my way? I'll be in neurotrauma tomorrow so I won't really have too much time to sit down and recite prayers. But that's between me and the Big Guy so don't you worry about it, we'll get it all worked out.)

    And in case you're wondering, I'm Catholic and majored in Theology and Nursing.

    Have a wonderful day, hope to see you all soon, but not too soon. This is a beautiful world, isn't it? :)

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  52. In Your Face New Yorker: Long Island native, here. How ya doin. I'm not offended by anything you say, and I don't think you're being offensive. I've thought things like that all the time. It's not disrespectful to questions something you don't believe in. How else will you learn about it? And how can you respect a religion or understand it if no one can offer you an intelligible, honest explanation?

    I think Kevorkian says that people are so focused on the ridiculous new traditions of Easter that they forget the suffering that Jesus went through for us. And because that weak aspect of Jesus makes us uncomfortable, we'd rather focus on the colorful eggs and 6' easter bunny instead of the main point of the "holiday"- Jesus' suffering and resurrecting so we don't have to.

    Anyone who honestly believes in something won't get offended by people who question it or even attack it. Teach them about how awesome it is, or just move on and accept the differences. You can argue with me as much as you want that, say, If you really believe in whatever you believe in, chill out bro.

    Arguing over who's God is real is ridiculous. Bottom line of most belief systems or "lack of belief systems" (which are still beliefs): there is one force that is more powerful than all of us put together; it is essentially good; and it joins us together. You call him God, you call it Allah, you call it nature, you call it "I don't know," you call it "nothing but coincidence," and you call it the Sun God.

    Instead of fighting over who's God wins, why don't we just realize the common ground in these belief systems: get through life respecting each other, the earth, the powerful force that made us all: (insert your belief here).

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  53. Another thing. Are you suggesting that antibiotics are playing God? Is refusing to do CPR on a patient killing them, even if they've signed a Do Not Resuscitate order?
    There's a tough balance now that technology is so advanced. What if I pulled you out of a river unconscious? On one hand, if I just stand there, you will die naturally; if I give you CPR, you may live.
    Now, if you are brain-dead after I give you CPR but you are hooked up to a vent and feeding tube, you can live for the next 10 years lying in that bed, so worthless you don't even know you're worthless. Only your brainstem works, none of your thinking or emotions work. None of YOU is there, only your body. If I keep you alive, am I playing God? If I pull the plug, am I playing God?

    What if you're a 90-year old woman and you jumped in that river on purpose after signing a DNR because you're tired of living, your husband has been dead for months, you're in a massive amount of pain, and your doctor would NEVER kill you because it's incredibly illegal and wrong. Am I a murderer if I don't do CPR? What if I do CPR, crush all of your little bitty ribs in the process, and now you lie in bed until you're 100 years old, doing NOTHING, thinking NOTHING, when all you wanted to do was die? If it's been 10 years and I finally pull the plug, how am I different than Dr. Kevorkian?

    It's not written in the Bible, what to do with people who are 104 years old and living with excruciating pain, or how long to keep a patient on dialysis even though it's miserable and both of their legs are already cut off, or what to do with a 30 year old who's dying of AIDS and has a bacterial infection in every orifice in her body because that terrible virus completely killed her immune system.

    You look a little old lady in the eye as she's screaming in AGONY, from relentless pain when she's old as shit, she's been lying in her own feces for a week because she's physically incapable of doing anything for herself, which gave her sepsis that will kill her, but you cure with an antibiotic and let her enjoy this fabulous life of hers for 5 more years.

    You look that little face in the eyes that should have died years ago and tell me that you wouldn't want to just watch her die peacefully, smiling, COMFORTABLE, with a lethal dose of some pain reliever or something. You would rather let her die psychotic, screaming in a pool of her own excrement and misery and let her dignity die years before she's allowed to.

    Dr. Kevorkian's methods were eccentric but his theories were great, and if I were legally allowed to, I'd push that syringe the second that little old lady begged me to, if I knew she genuinely needed it.

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