Editor's note: Never post or tape news coverage in anger. Mike still looks really good though - I like the dark jacket.
The best thing to do if you disagree with the choice made by Cardinal Dolan is to write a respectful letter expressing your disagreement/confusion politely and intelligently. One may even request he reconsider his choice to participate in the parade. If necessary, write a similar letter to the Papal Nuncio, Congregatio pro Episcopis, the President of the USCCB, and if you must, the Pope. Avoid condemnation and judgemental terminology or quotes - humbly present your position. Then pray. Pray very much.
I have a feeling that by the time March rolls around Cardinal Dolan will decide not to participate in the parade and that his runner up, Whoopi Goldberg will act as Grand Marshall instead.
What?
H/T LarryD Song for his post here.
So, what are you saying?
He is certainly saying what many of us are thinking but the delivery is left wanting. I hope more people speak up and more eloquently.
ReplyDeleteJust my two cents after watching this:
ReplyDeleteWay too judgmental to take him seriously unless one is a follower of his. He lacks charity and prudence. Yes, one can be angry and upset but one also needs to refrain from the direct attacks such as the ones Mr. Voris is using.
To say Cardinal Dolan is an "evil bishop" is outrageous. Sure he's made a few fumbles as have we all but unless faith and reason, with lots of charity and prayer and humility, come into play, Mr. Voris is out of line.
I hope Cardinal Dolan comes out swinging just like Mr. Voris has and defends himself. I may not agree with some of what Cardinal Dolan has done but he does deserve respect due his dignity as a Cardinal.
If, Mr. Voris, you wanted to chew him out, you should have done so privately and not in public with such fanfare...oh! Wait but you're Michael Voris...yeah, I forgot, that's your style.
Would you agree that it is "way too judgmental" to say that Voris is "way too judgmental"? The only judgment that is uncalled for is to say that someone is definitely going to Hell, or that someone who is dead definitely will be in Hell. Any other judgment is fair game, especially when saying whether particular actions are evil. What you would call a "few fumbles", I would call a snowballing wreckage. Do you genuinely not think that they have tried to settle this privately? Voris on his Mic'd Up program a while ago said they contacted his assistant many times and were denied interviews to speak and discuss his actions with him. When barely anybody in the mainstream Catholic media seems to care about what Dolan and Cardinals and bishops like him are doing, what do you expect but for ChurchMilitant to be quite visibly annoyed as the only way to get the attention of Catholics, who otherwise would ignore him, like yourself and others here. Rather than hoping that Cardinal Dolan attacks Voris, surely you should be hoping that Dolan either publically apologises for his recent actions, seeks to reverse them, or otherwise resign.
DeleteNever has his signature sign off, "God love you", sounded so absurd before.
ReplyDeleteWhat a joke. I wouldn't touch his "authentic Catholic uprising" with a bargepole.
Amen! But he seems to mean well. Only God can judge is heart though. ;p
DeleteWhat's funny is that there are many people who are significantly angrier at Michael Voris for pointing out Dolan's multitude scandals, then at the actual scandals themselves. It may be uncalled for if the person in question was a random unknown person, but this is a Cardinal of one of the most well-known archdioceses in the US doing these gravely objectionable things. Cardinal Mahony, who caused billions of dollars of damage to the Church, took decades to remove because barely anybody spoke out and those that did were silenced (e.g. Mother Angelica). Cardinal Dolan for years has been a train-wreck of continuous grievous scandal to the Church and it is just too much to stay silent now. Nobody is saying that Dolan is intrinsically "evil", but that his actions and dealings as Cardinal for a large part have been. I would rather offend someone to heaven, than flatter them to hell. If we carry on at this rate, not willing to offend anyone's sensibilities and unwilling to speak the truth forcefully in this cultural chaos, both inside and outside the Church, there will be no Church in America by the end of this century.
ReplyDeleteDoes anyone recall Mother Angelica's calling out of Cardinal Mahony? I think those condemning Mike Voris would have to condemn Mother as well. I was a little taken aback when I saw The Vortex episode, but I had to agree that what Cardinal Dolan has been doing is, yes, evil. Now how many evil acts can a man commit before he is identified with his evil. Would it be better to call Cdl. Dolan that "old fox" as Jesus called Herod? Or how about Judas since he so frequently betrays the teaching of the Church?
ReplyDeleteThe thing I like about Mike Voris is that he acts like a man. There seem to be few of those in the Church these days. And I seem to recall a few bishops who were less than gentle with the cleric heretics of their day. There's the story about St. Nicholas punching out Bishop Arius at the Council of Nicaea. True?
Thanks for the link, Terry.
ReplyDeleteAll I have to say is Howard Beale.
ReplyDeleteVoris is entitled to his own opinion but far from coming off as a "man," he comes off as the screeching town busybody/shrew, clutching his pearls while he hyperventilates and everyone rolls their eyes as they pass him. A man would calmly lay out his case not act like a hysterical uh, person. The only real problem I have with his little video is when he says that the Cardinal will go to Hell if he folllows the same path and that even before them bad things will happen...Only God can pass judgement on someone and even when we see someone doing something "evil," we can judge their acts but not their souls.
ReplyDeleteI could actually feel something for the guy if all of this was genuine, but (In my opinion and we all know how the saying goes...) it seems a bit calculated and cynical to me. He seems to be relying up his "base," as it were and causing hits to his website and extending his brand as it were.
I also think Voris is a fine one to talk about humility and humbleness. Pot, your black.
"I could actually feel something for the guy if all of this was genuine, but (In my opinion and we all know how the saying goes...) it seems a bit calculated and cynical to me. He seems to be relying up his "base," as it were and causing hits to his website and extending his brand as it were.
ReplyDeleteI also think Voris is a fine one to talk about humility and humbleness. Pot, your black."
Careful, MM, not to be judgmental or anything, but your being judgmental is a cause for scandal. ;o I mean gee...be smug and self righteous is how one gets their point across. Gasp!
I have been accused of that many times over. ;o
I'm off to wash the dishes now.
Blessings to all on this most beautiful soon-to-be autumn day.
Yaya, I will totally own it! I just stop short of calling a Cardinal "evil," and is going to hell. I think the abusing priests did evil things, but I don't know if they are...God know s that. So its my judgemental nature which feels Voris is trying a bit too hard recently in trying to take over the mantel of Media Catholic Against B.S. from Mother Angelica, none too subtle either. Mother Angelica knew how to knock heads together and make people listen...(but then, who isnt afraid of a nun???)
ReplyDeleteAnd please Yaya, put the dishes down and enjoy the day!
MM, you are a kind man indeed to want me to put down those dishes. ^^ I enjoy washing dishes while looking out the kitchen window. I listen to the birds sing God's praises. I smile if the salsa is stuck too hard to a spoon so I scrub furiously and find that as I do so, it clears the mind, strengthens the heart, and keeps me from being a nasty and smug person...especially while online.
DeleteIn my judgmental nature...much like yours dear MM, I agree with everything you have stated.
I am a fan of Mother Angelica too...always have been. A loyal and loving daughter of the Church with a heart full of love for Jesus and His little ones. No divisive Catholic she! <3 <3 <3
Now then!
Cardinal Dolan!
I have liked you from the days of when you were the Rector at the American College in Rome. I supported you then and I support you now but I am not enthused by some of your current "fumbles."
As you are an avid football fan, you know that fumbles can cause losses
Please! Reconsider what has taken place and clarify for the sake of all of us who are confused/unimpressed with regards to your current actions.
Thank you and God bless you!
I expected him to add at the end: On top of all that, you're fat.
ReplyDeleteHe didn't want Cardinal Dolan to reply, "yes, I may be fat, but your hair is rivaled only by that of Donald Trump.
ReplyDeleteWhat?
Yeah okay.
ReplyDeleteI think what's really going on here is that the scandal is so great that some people simply cannot deal with it, so they try to tone it down by focusing on the scandalized. They flame Voris because they cannot possibly compute how Cardinal Dolan could do what he is doing. It only leads to further confusion when the righteous anger on Monday is extinguished by self-loathing false guilt on Tuesday, as if to be scandalized by something and to be the least bit angry about that is somehow sinful.
ReplyDeleteIt is soul-crushing false humility.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0J71-V847aU#t=166
ReplyDeleteWhat has this video got to do with anything?
DeleteIt's all one large related problem.
DeleteI can't speak for others, but I think people are calling out a "Catholic," who is trying desperately to be a media personality (and uses all of these "scandals," to further his own interests) on his practically judging the soul of a Cardinal. He didn't say, "I don't like what Dolan is doing because .. and this is what I think will be the consequences on the faithful and the Church." No posted a piece with him practically in hysterics and I wouldn't have been surprised if he did indeed starting pulling his hair out, calling Dolan, "EVIL"! for being the Grand Marshal of a goofy parade which has become less an "Irish-Catholic," parade and is now more of a community event.
ReplyDeleteSo for all the people having hissy fits and getting bent out of shape with their "righteous anger," (which only God can truly have, any of us fallen would just display "self-righteous," anger) here is my take on it (as I know everyone is waiting to hear it...)
Dolan had agreed to be the Grand Marshall, the parade organizers, of a parade which have no formal ties to the Church, made a decision among themselves to let this gay group in. Dolan did NOT make the decision, nor did he agree to be the GM because of it. To back out of it would like unprofessional and make this whole thing blow up into a "Catholics HATE gays," (and while yes, a lot of Catholics from their posts on sites do indeed use the sin as an excuse to hate the sinner, the Catholic Church does not.)
Believe it or not if he backs out now he will make himself and the Church look like a grumpy, self righteous, out of date unpleasant old prune (go and read Crisis Magazine if you want to know what that looks and sound like...and think about how many converts that gets) As it is he is doing damage control (once again believe it or not) for the parade and preserve a sense of unity. Dolan is in a no win situation with this and being the true crafty Irish politician he is at heart, this is the least damaging thing he can do.
The Michael Sam comment that all the conservative get upset about is once again, Dolan doing the best tap dance he can. The question was thrown at him, had nothing to do with the interview and as far as I know Sam is not Catholic. So the Cardinal said "Good for him," which really means, "Why the hell are you asking me this when it has nothing to do with this interview." His quote that hysterical prunes like Voris leave out is...'The same Bible that tells us that — teaches us well about the virtues of chastity and — and the virtue of fidelity and marriage also tells us not to judge people. So I would say, 'Bravo.'" So Dolan is saying, "Yes, I stand by the Church's teaching but I am not going to condemn this kid without any information about his life or what he does with it."
Good points Mack - you have found the good in all that has happened. Thanks for contributing once again. I mean it.
DeleteWhy do you just assert that Voris is "desperately trying to be a media personality", who uses scandals to "further his own interests"? Other than your opinion, do you have any facts that substantiate this? Voris is pointing all these scandals out because barely anyone else is. He praises those in other media outlets that do call out the scandals, like Pat Archbold in the NCRegister did.
DeleteThe problem is that Dolan has formal ties to the Church, and this parade has formal ties to a militant homosexual wing, thus by Dolan lending his support to the parade, he is legitimising the militant homosexual wing. Dolan can certainly back out and refuse to do this. Who cares if people think that "Catholics hate gays"? Nothing could be farther from the truth, and in any case the frothing liberals think that anyway.
No. "Good for him" means "Good for him". It does not mean, "Good for him, so long as he lives the celibate life in accordance with the Church." His actions left the impression that homosexuality is normal and thus that homosexual acts are normal, which completely contradicts Church teaching and confuses the public hugely.
Isn't telling people not to judge others, judgmental? Only God can judge the state of someone's soul before and after they die, but anything else is up for judgment.
Do you not find it disconcerting that only 1-2 serious Catholic news outlets actually reported this story?
Yes, apparently the only ad hominem attacks permitted are those which fit the underlying ethos of Abbey Roads.
Delete".Other than your opinion, do you have any facts that substantiate this?" and.."ad hominem attacks," Crisis Magazine called, and they want their phrases back.
DeleteYes, that is my opinion...based on watching Voris' videos and reading his background..(how the "Church" itself wanted to distance itself from Voris..) It is not too hard to link his recent videos of Mother Angelica and how she "took on the liberal side of the Church" to him trying to link himself as the new Voice of Rebellion. Also, posts from his fans have included Mother's name linking him to her in spirit so. For the desperate to be a media personality...just take a look at his work.
"Isn't telling people not to judge others, judgmental? Only God can judge the state of someone's soul before and after they die, but anything else is up for judgment."
Talking in circles doesn't prove your point. As I said judging someone's actions is a whole different ball game then judging someone's soul . For example when I say Voris, utilizes sometimes hateful and ignorant rhetoric ("Sodomites" taking over the parade... ) to fan the flames of an already angry segment of the Catholic populations anger, to create more demand for his "product," to create a bigger audience, to find himself the center of attention IS my opinion and one I am free to hold. Saying he is going to hell in a hand basket oh, and some bad crap might happen to him before he dies IS a judgment and I have no business doing that. Nor does Mikey Voris.
And he won't say Boo about Francis? Have any of those he accused of "ecclesiastical pornography" ever used this tone against even worse bishops?
ReplyDeleteStill, I'm glad to see he hasn't spared neo-con Chaput from criticism. He's been getting a pass for too long.
Michael Voris might not have the patience of a saint, but he has the passion (and heart) of one. What if "Wicked Bishops" helps to save the soul of Cardinal Dolan? I think that's what Voris is after.
ReplyDeleteI wish Cardinal Dolan would call Michael personally, and then publicly respond to the critics - no matter how harsh they have been. That would be a very Pope Francis thing to do, I think.
DeleteVoris has made what could easily be read as a threat on the life of Dolan. I hope the Archdiocese of NY calls the cops on him. Catholics making excuses for this need to shut their pieholes.
ReplyDelete