Rebellion to the Holy See.
Those speaking out against the Holy Father, Cardinal Cupich and other bishops in their rebellion against the Holy See's decree limiting the Extraordinary Form should not be followed. I found it alarming that Fr. Z, among other traditionalists online accuse the Archdiocese of Chicago of lying as regards the ICKSP closure. They are close to outright rebellion against the Pope and at the very least they may place themselves outside the Church if they persist. Fr. Z offers a false equivalency comparing the refusal/resistance of the ICKSP to that of St. Thomas More and St. John Fisher. No one is denying the authority of the Pope except for people like Fr. Z.
In the same vein, Holy Mass is not being suppressed or denigrated. The Eucharist is not being withheld, nor is the Real Presence denied. The Ordinary Form of Mass is the norm for the Roman Rite. This resistance and the idea that the true Mass will go underground, into the catacombs is a complete exaggeration feeding into ideological polemics. Those who spread this type of persecution propaganda often rely on numerous conspiracy theories of infiltration and dubious prophecies of a false Mass and a bad Council, to bolster their claims against the Pope and Magisterium.
'That kind of thing cannot come from God"
"About 1894 there appeared in France a series of self-styled revelations of the secrets of Freemasonry, published by a certain Dr. Bataille (Leon Taxil) and a woman called Diana Vaughan. These accounts gripped the imagination of the French public for a while. Later they were found to be false. The Servant of God took a certain interest in them at first, but long before there was any official denial of them she told us that they were not to be believed. Her only reason for rejecting them was the fact that Diana Vaughan once spoke against episcopal authority. 'That kind of thing cannot come from God, ' she said." - St. Therese By Those Who Knew Her
Photo: Venezia by Joanna Maclennan
Well stated, Terry. Fr. Z is a bit scary sometimes, although I do not criticize his vocation as a holy priest.
ReplyDeleteIt's getting ugly out there. I am sure Lucifer is rejoicing at this division and backbiting. Personally, I think it would be a good thing for the Vatican to consider a TLM Rite, just as we have the Latin Rite, Byzantine Rite, Melkite Rite, Maronite Rite, and so on. It might help put an end to the bickering and hatefulness between Catholics, which would be a fine thing, IMHO.
My own bishop, Bishop Edward Malesic JCL of Cleveland, told the Diocesan priests that if they have TLM Masses in place, to continue, but not to add new TLM Masses to their schedules until further notice, in accord with the Pope's request. So those who prefer the TLM may continue as before. I think this is sensible, sensitive, and pastoral.
Peace to you, dear Terry, and all here.
Susan, that doesn't make sense to me, The Traditional Latin Mass is not a rite of its own - it's used by the same church that uses the Novus Ordo, the Latin Rite, Church of Rome, which also has the Angican Ordinariate, using its own liturgy. The others you listed are Sui Juris Churches so are in communion with Rome but follow their own traditions. The exception I'm aware of is the Byzantine Rite, used by multiple Sui Juris hurches, including my own Byzantine-Ruthenian Church and the Ukrainian Church.
DeleteWe use two different liturgies, those of St John Chrysostom and St Basil the Great, but St Basil is only for a few liturgies and the only thing that changes is the priest has more prayers. Any other church using the Byzantine Rite follows their own traditions like the Melkite church doesn't use Slovak, it uses Arabic and follows its own traditions.
I agree Susan. Make it a legitimate Rite and let them organize their own group. The problem, as I see it, is the push into every Parish. They deny the Popes authority time and again. I recently did a trip down memory lane and surfed traditional Catholic on Pinterest. I saw many diagrams about vestments, altar arrangements and the like. I remember learning all of that in Grade school. I cannot believe it would be attractive to a large number of people. It is mysterious & beautiful in a historical light, but, for me, lacks a soul & spirit. I believe God’s Grace and mercy is at times overwhelming in a referential NO Mass. I sometimes ask myself when Christ returns which would he choose to be present at?
ReplyDeleteMy feelings on this are the same as yours, my dear Mr. H. I *love* my Novus Ordo parish and priests, who celebrate Mass with faithfulness and reverence. The TLM is not for me - I tried, and God wants me to be right where I am at my parish. And I am sympathetic to the TLM community. They aren't all antagonistic, but those who are make the most noise. If they had their own Rite, they would be able to continue to worship at the Mass they prefer but will still be answerable to a bishop and the Pope, which is vital to keep them Catholic.
DeleteAs to your last question, I *hope* he wants to be right where you, I, and all loving Catholics are!!!
I agree with both of you - I'd be happy to coexist as Pope Benedict envisioned but as Wallace notes it always ends up that the NO needs to go and if every parish had the EF everyone would be holier and happier. Then it gets into good Mass bad Mass and good sacraments bad sacraments - it denies the living Magisterium - it splits the Church. Now days we see what has happened, outright accusations against the Pope and bishops in communion with him which is a rebellion against the authority of the Pope and the bishops in union with him to interpret the Word of God, Tradition and Liturgy of the Church. They accuse him of heresy, of being a false pope, of being a liar and a bully, they speculate he is diabolical - that is insane. Burke just left a video message on Z's site encouraging his readers and urging them to keep up their prayers and efforts to restore the TLM. This is open opposition to the Pope and is effort to unite the Church. It's jaw dropping rebellion. What did the archangel Lucifer and his angels do? They fostered a rebellion against God, against the very idea of the Incarnation - the Word made flesh in the lowest self- abasement heaven has ever encountered. The Novus Ordo is the holy sacrifice of the Mass - there is no denying it. I'm no liturgist, but a separate rite for the TLM is not possible since the EF and OF is the same rite. Opponents deny that, yet Benedict XVI affirmed it in SP. Now Pope Francis is limiting it's usage - because of the tendency to make 2 rites of one and by extension, split the Church.
ReplyDeleteAnyway - I'm shocked how extreme this has all become, their opposition and rebellion proves it has gone too far and the Holy Father's discipline is warranted.
Every time the NO is attacked, they always cite examples of outrageous liturgy. I agree that the liturgy needs to be reverent - all the time, everywhere. But they never recognize that the great majority of NO Masses are indeed faithful and beautiful. I am quite certain that there are TLM Masses that sometimes are lacking.
DeleteYou are right to say that we should be united. I think we were reasonably cordial in Pope Benedict's time, but not what I would say "united".
I would like to mention an example of something that is a baby step to creating a family feeling between the TLM and the NO. I belong to a NO parish, which was merged with a very traditionally minded parish 10 years ago. Two years later the merger was rescinded by the Vatican. In the time we were together we created a parish family.
And today, we have a schola choir, which chants the old Latin hymns beautifully, and which sings at special Masses and events throughout the year. It is comprised of parishioners from both parishes. It is a fine thing - my husband sings with them. They have ad orientem Masses at their parish, and we have beautiful Novus Ordo Masses at our parish, and we share our pastor and vicar.
And there is not one word of backbiting, disrespect, and disloyalty to our pastor, bishop, and Pope Francis that I have ever heard from either parish.
It can be done, but it takes a little work. And a loving, faithful parish community and Church is not nourished by hateful words, disloyalty, misinformation, and bullying,
During a retreat a couple of years ago, an Irish priest told me that older priests would brag to him about how they had learned to cut down the 1962 and say it so fast that some could say it in under fifteen minutes. This priest also told me about how in seminary, in Ireland in the 1980's, he had to drive an hour away every day to do a Holy Hour and say the rosary. If he would have been caught he would have been kicked out of the seminary.
DeleteI have attended the Latin Mass, 1962 missal, four times in my life. I love Latin anyway, and there were symbolism about the sacrifice of the Mass that are far more explicit in the Latin Mass.
That being said, I have attended wonderful OF Masses, and while I shouldn't be looking for consolations like this, they are edifying. Even an OF Mass that just follows the rubrics is edifying. But I have been to trainwreck masses, and though they were valid masses. Hoo boy. I just put my head down and prayed in between the responses.
I'm not surprised at all. I expect more to come...
DeleteI see your point Terry and agree with you. The TLM’s want to live in the past. Fine. I never hear about the corporal works of mercy from them. Always a stickler for proper performance of rites. A part of me loves the memory of those rites, but, I think, God asks more of me and all of us.
ReplyDeleteYes, Mr. H - that is the impression I get from all these Internet/Facebook bullies. There is much more to being a good Catholic than vigorously following the rules - we are called to be more - we must be a reflection of Jesus, Our Lady, and all the holy saints, not only to the world, but to our own Catholic brothers and sisters, no matter what language and Rite they use when they worship. With all the bitter words, that part seems to be missing.
DeleteI don't know if you saw Terry, but "Pope" Michael died a few days ago. I believe you've written on him before. I know it's fun to make fun of that extreme mindset, still I've been saying lots of prayers for him.
ReplyDeleteSteven, I did learn of that and pray for him. I read somewhere that he repented of schism and died reconciled to the Church. I know little to nothing about him but readers have referenced him in their comments. I have written of another anti-pope in Palma, Spain.
DeleteHow is Vegano or Burke holding Court as they do any different then Pope Michael et al?
Deletethe thing now - is the Atlantic article - i agree with it 100% Rad Trads are going nuts!
ReplyDeleteJust once I would like Fr. Z to talk about his relationship with Jesus Christ. I've read his blog off and on (lately hardly at all because he's so bitter) for almost 20 years and I am sure he only writes about rules and food.
ReplyDelete