This makes so much sense... for me at least.
Respected author Elena Maria Vidal of Tea at Trianon has posted excerpts from two other sites which offer a more serious and profound insight into the resignation of Pope Benedict XVI and the turbulent atmosphere the Church finds itself in these days.
I especially appreciate this reflection from Taylor Marshal which she shares:
The one solid apparition I have always tried to adhere to is Fatima. There Our Lady pleaded that we pray for the Holy Father who will have much to suffer. In these apparitions Our Lady placed special emphasis on that request, as did the seers. It seems to me that we cannot casually dismiss the papacy as something from the past, something that must be changed or done away with. It seems to me that we cannot ignore the fact that the pope is Christ's vicar and of great importance to the Church.The Agony of the Garden among the olive trees is the prelude to the Passion of Christ! The episode at the Mount of Olives is the beginning of the redemptive sorrows ending in the crucifixion and death of Christ.So likewise, Pope Benedict's sorrowful agony as Pope may be the prelude to the final Passion of Christ's Church. His papacy is the glory of the olive because he was placed in the Agony of the Garden for the Church. All have fallen asleep. He is betrayed by his closest friends and counselors. He is all alone. He is staring into the chalice of God's wrath and he is asking that it be taken from him! - Taylor Marshall
Likewise, many years and infidelities ago, during the Pontificate of Paul VI, I understood that the Church was indeed entering a 'dark night'... following Christ to the cross. I believe that. Which is why I so appreciate this observation from Alain Besançon:
Pope Benedict “finds himself in a situation similar to that of Paul VI after Vatican II, in confronting what he called ‘the self-destruction’ of the Church. - Source
H/T PML
Terry...I agree with all my mind and heart with your post here. Would that The Church might pray for Pope Benedict (and all Popes) the way Benedict has prayed for us. But foolish sheep are we...
ReplyDeleteWhile there may be some truth in the fact that the pope was given the task of suffering, I was always under the impression that the St. Malachy prophecy was a complete forgery, and that it's a vain task to try to match the epithets to the popes (and easy to do if one is in fact convinced of the prophecy - it's always easy to figure out how one thing could mean something else).
ReplyDeleteAlso, I once read Fr. Hardon saying we are nowhere near the end times, as several things would have to happen first, namely that the world be converted. I really don't know, since I think it's unfruitful to focus on the "end times", and in fact I stay FAR away from it, due to my scruples and OCD.
It's also weird to watch people almost positively squirming with glee at the idea of God's wrath being unleashed. It's not something I want to be around for.
I think it is an era change - or at least that is what many believe. I may be getting close to my personal end times, but for the world, I tend to think an era change.
ReplyDeleteYes - an era change - for an essay on that...see David Warren's essay @ The Catholic Thing, "The New Ocean." It's beautifully done.
ReplyDeleteIn closing...right now...I feel that the abundance of ignorance and ill-will on display by laity, clergy and Bishops in the Church is proving that God is protecting The Church...even from itself.
ReplyDeleteTerry, thank you for your link. The connection with the Gethsemane brings it all together for me.
ReplyDeleteMercury, honey, the St. Malachy Prophecy is not a forgery at all although the earlier parts of the list have been tampered with. When people dismiss the entire list as a forgery, they need to be more specific. Forged by whom? When? Where? It is important to study the list before dismissing it. Of the 111 titles describing all the popes and anti-popes from 1143 to the present, the first 71 titles have been subjected to the tampering but the last 40, which cover the years 1572 to 2012, are untouched. And they are remarkably accurate. Please read more: http://teaattrianon.blogspot.com/search?q=St.+Malachy
elena, I'm sorry, but go personal reasons I choose not to look into anything like that. Nothing against you or anyone who believes in their authenticity, but I tend to only give credence to those prophecies/apparitions with the highest ecclesiastical backing (Fatima, Lourdes, etc.).
ReplyDeleteIt has more to do with my OCD than anything, and an inability to discern what is useful and profitable even in those approved apparitions.
The Saint Malachy Prophecies were suddenly "discovered" in 1590, after which date the stunning accuracy of the prophecies suddenly evaporates in favor of nonsensical lines which could be interpreted any which way.
ReplyDeleteProponents of this "prophecy" go through absurd gymnastics to force the lines to "fit" the popes whom they allegedly predict. The "Glory of the Olive" is a perfect example. Malachy believers stretch that to "accurately" predict Benedict XVI by pointing out that the Benedictines were once called the Olivetians, and therefore Pope Benedict, who is not a Benedictine and who named himself to honour, in the first place, Pope Benedict XV, nevertheless took the name "Benedict" and therefore is clearly the "Glory of the Olives". If you have to stretch a pair of jeans that far to get 'em on, face it: they don't fit.
James
Father told us to pray particularly on Thurs as 1:00 our time is quitting time. We'll remember Papa at 7:30 Mass by name for the last time. How beautiful that the Holy Spirit provides Joseph to pray for His Holy Church while at the same time giving us a new Pope to deal with other matters.
ReplyDeleteIt's okay, Mercury. I understand.
ReplyDeleteElana
ReplyDeleteActually, the so-called prophecies are forgeries. St Bernard, for example, never mentioned them (I know, an argument from silence; however, since St Bernard was the official biographer of the real saint, this would be a significant thing to mention).
The way the "prophecy" is being used mostly by anti-Catholics should tell us something. It's demonic at best, and it is being used to set up confusion and despair in the Church now, and even more in the future like all false prophecies. So many will split off from Rome when they believe the Anti-Christ is in the Seat because "there should be no Pope."
As James mentioned, a lot of it is vague, and people find any excuse to connect a Pope with a line, showing what is known as confirmation bias.
http://www.archindy.org/criterion/files/2006/pdfs/20061027.pdf page 15 explains a bit more on this. It was really a political commentary. I would not follow ridiculous sensationalism being used by Protestants to attack the Church.
Just look at what I mean about confirmation bias: you say "Glory of Olives" means peace, but if you find something else, you accept that instead. The vague nature combined with confirmation bias shows why they "fit" when they really don't. It's nonsense of the Nostradamus level of nonsense.
ReplyDeleteI would also say that all of these interpretations like Taylor's are dangerous for what they present: it's a Catholic equivalent to all the Protestant rapture "is around the corner" nonsense. And what it is going to do, again, is encourage many Catholics to enter into schism when "no more Popes" time comes. So many people want "today" to be "the end times," in every generation. It's a dangerous game. What we need to know is we will die and we will face the judgment. We need to stop the egotistical notion that our time is special, making us special. That's hubris. And history constantly shows what happens with failed end time predictions. It's not a good thing at all.
So, not only is Malachy fake, people promoting him like Taylor are dangerous for the Church because of what is going to happen through them and their words. Don't encourage them.
Terry, I thought you had banned anonymous comments from your blog.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous you do raise serious issues and observations, though what the enemies of the Church do with such things really does not negate the authenticity of the prophecies. The enemies of the Church have used legitimate documents, other approved apparitions worthy of belief, and addresses by Popes (or bishops) to justify their position against the teachings of the Church. To apply such a litmus test seems equally dangerous given legitimate and worth documents can be missed used by the enemies. The list of examples is long, as are the number of anti-Catholic blog sites.
ReplyDeleteFurther, you do raise cautions that should be pondered seriously.
Elena, do you know if the book you referenced on this topic in two of your past columns has ever been translated into English? Would you be able to provide more information regarding the author etc. Thanks.
Hi Elena - sorry about that - I have opened anonymous comments because some of the readers have trouble with logging in for some reason and asked me to open comments.
ReplyDeleteI just came online and didn't realize a debate had ensued. I'll close anonymous access for now, while matters settle down.
Thanks, Terry. I love to discuss these things but I will not debate with Anonymous commenters.
ReplyDeleteDear PML, I am afraid the book La Mystérieuse prophétie des papes by Fr. René Thibaut, S.J. (Namur: Bibliothèque de la Faculté de philosophie et lettres,1951, Imprimatur: June 28, 1945, Et. Jos. Carton de Wiart) is not in English. However, since it is written in scholarly French it is much easier to read than idiomatic French. Fr. Thibaut (1883-1952) was a Belgian Jesuit and a professor at the University of Namur. (http://www.jesuitica.be/assets/file/Prosopographia%20SJ%20BSE%201814-2003%20%20%28v0901%29%20%28E%29.pdf) He studied the List of Popes for decades and published his book in 1951 a year before he died. Yes, the book has an Imprimatur. Fr. Thibaut’s research reveals that there is a great deal more to the Prophecy than meets the eye.His book is a penetrating treatise which, because of the author’s vast knowledge of Church history and Sacred Scripture, both informs and inspires. The middle of the book is devoted to charts tracing the date of Easter over the years, and the leap years, as well as various ciphers, anagrams and acrostics with which, as Fr. Thibaut demonstrates, the list of Popes is imbued. Fr. Thibaut’s analysis becomes complex at that point although he explains his conclusions with clarity.
Fr. Thibaut maintains that the Prophecy of the Popes is a genuine prophecy. However, the identity of the actual prophet remains unclear. The author of the Prophecy is probably not St Malachy but someone who wrote under the name of the great Irish saint in order to honor him. (p.7) Fr. Thibaut insists that the Prophecy is not meant to worry or disturb but to reassure the faithful about the Providence of God during even the most difficult of times. It is a sort of litany which celebrates the glory and triumph of the universal Church throughout the ages under the leadership of the Roman pontiffs. (p.24) It was a mistake for people of the past (and present) to use the list of popes in order to predict who the next pope would be, for that was never the intention of the original author. (p.20) Neither is it meant to herald the imminent end of the world, because "of that day and hour no one knoweth, not the angels of heaven, but the Father alone." (Matthew 24:36)
I have many more links and more information in my posts on this topic:
http://teaattrianon.blogspot.com/search?q=St.+Malachy