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I just have a few more comments related to the story about the priest scandal in Rome. Especially after "the Vicar of Rome today called on homosexual clergymen in the Catholic Church to “come out” and leave the priesthood." That could be a scene, huh?
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Another writer, Bryan Cones claims, "the church's real problem is the closet. I must agree with the Vicar of Rome that it would be helpful if gay priests would come out--so we could thank them for their faithful service, especially as they have been unjustly tarred with "causing" sex abuse..."
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Claiming the naughty priests have given other gay priests a bad name, Cones says: "This will add further fuel to the claims those, as the Catholic League's Bill Donohue argued on the Washington Post's On Faith blog, that the church doesn't have a pedophilia problem, it has a homosexuality problem."
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But it does.
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Regardless of what one may think about an 'isolated' case of gay Roman clergy out on the town, and laying aside attempts at leveling the playing field with the lame excuse, "there are plenty of priests--straight and gay--who misbehave sexually with other adults" - unless you have been totally lobotomized, the problem really is gay priests. The gay part is the problem, okay? Everyone can fall into sexual sin - but the equal sign doesn't work beyond that point. There are Church documents forbidding the ordination of homosexuals. Do some get ordained? Always have. Do they all act out? Hopefully not. Can anyone guarantee that? Not at all.
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So anyway, if the good ones do come out, ask them what they did on their trips to NYC, Rome, Washington and other points of study, vacation, or even assignment. Ask them about their friends in those cities - not that they are in a network - but when they visit one another, or just hang out, what's their favorite bar? Park? Gym? Some of them might even be able to compare notes with the Roman preti.
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I'm just saying.
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Photo: Suspended Roman priest, Fr. Tommaso Stenico. His was a similar story: "Boys in the Vatican". Stenico once worked for the Congregation of the Clergy. Kind of like "Lunatics running the asylum"... or "The fox guarding the hen-house." Whatever.
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Terry--Am tired having worked 13 hours today but...I had a thought recently: the best argument against homosexuality is the Holy Family. No GBLT in the Nativity,hmm? This was our model.
ReplyDeleteWhy exactly are the homosexuality and pedophilia problems mutually exclusive? The Church has problems in both areas.
ReplyDeleteI have an easy-squeazy solution.
ReplyDeleteIf any man wants to be a priest, his genitalia should be entirely removed immediately prior to ordination.
No more naughty touching. No more man lovin'. No more fathering children.
We'll create a new gender like the ancient temple eunuchs.
That will fix all of our problems.
Right?
Right?
Good.
Now we can get back to being the Church.
Thom. from the comments I've seen of yours on Terry's blog, I have a hunch you may want to check out this really great website: http://www.chastitysf.com/index.html
ReplyDeleteEspecially check out this page:
http://www.guidetopsychology.com/identity.htm
The contents in this website are both very practical and very spiritual and would literally fill many, many volumes. I recommend it to everyone.
May God bless!
No thanks.
ReplyDeleteI find that trying to live the gospel is challenging enough without a bunch of fabricated add-ons.
+JMJ+
ReplyDeleteI think Terry's point is that whether or not a homosexual priest ever commits a sexual sin with another man again (or even, if you want to go down another route, with a woman . . . or with an animal . . . or heck, even on his own), there would still be a serious problem.
No matter how all-inclusive the environment or truly welcoming and accepting the individuals in it, homosexuals will still form their own no-heterosexuals-allowed network; and the "good ones" will happily accept the "bad ones" and turn a blind eye to certain activities, if necessary.
I like what you had to say, Maria -- no sexual perversions going on in the model given to us in the Holy Family.
ReplyDeleteGay priests are a problem. That ought to be obvious to one and all. Sure, there are some fornicating priests, and sure, there are some true pedophile priests, but for the most part, the scandals involve gay priests.
Keep 'em out of the seminaries. Period.
Keep them out of churches, too! We don't need any funny business there, either.
ReplyDeleteActually, according to one commenter on Rorate Caeli (another blog that can't resist the gay :-p ), supported Pope Pius V's decree that gay priests should be executed by civil authorities.
ReplyDeleteThom, sfo: "one commenter ... supported Pope Pius V's decree that gay priests should be executed by civil authorities."
ReplyDeleteIs that the commenter who thinks that he is Pius V ?
Thom, sfo: "one commenter ... supported Pope Pius V's decree that gay priests should be executed by civil authorities."
ReplyDeleteIs that the commenter who thinks that he is Pius V ?
Not sure you could narrow down claims of infallibility to just one. :-p
ReplyDeleteThom, your comment is merely sarcastic, and so responding is probably an exercise in futility, but here goes anyway: no, homosexuals don't need to stay out of the Church, especially if they are in need of grace to live lives of chastity. Everyone has weaknesses in particular areas and we all are in need of grace -- and so we need the Church.
ReplyDeleteBut no, we don't need gays in the priesthood. Let them stay in the pews, please. Enough damage has been done: Combine a serious sexual disorder with a culture of clericalism that protects its own, and what do you get? Exactly the kind of scandals that we've gotten.
Austringer's comment brings up the subject of clericalism (of which "gay clericalism" is a subset). An exaggerated example of this is a quote from Cardinal Castrillon-Hoyos commending a French bishop who refused to turn over a known pedophile to the police: "I rejoice to have a colleague in the episcopate who, in the eyes of history and all the others bishops of the world, preferred prison rather than denouncing one of his sons, a priest." As long as we have an ecclesial culture in which priests are the "sons" and the rest of us are poor relation, we will continue to be a dysfunctional family.
ReplyDelete"...and the 'good ones' will happily accept the 'bad ones' and turn a blind eye to certain activities, if necessary."
ReplyDeletei'm sorry but i have to emphatically disagree with that one - honey.
+JMJ+
ReplyDeleteJ, I don't know how many gays you know, but the fact is that they're not on the margins because straight people don't like them, but because they don't like straight people.
The Angel that moves the Sun around the Earth; the Angels that cause each blade of grass to grow, the Angels that trace the flight of eagles through the air.
ReplyDeleteThere are Angels for every minute purpose God might have.
Satan is God's monkey. Monkey see, monkey do.
Satan has angels to carry out his plans of Sin.
One of those angels is the demon of Homosexuality. He is one of the most powerful angels because Satan has given extra power to him that he may thwart God's order to go forth and multiply.
We should pray hard for those in and out of the Priesthood that succumb to the beast.
I entrust this whole matter in the hands of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, “Mother of the Priest par excellence, Our Lord Jesus Christ, and through Him, of all priests in whom she forms her Son”.
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Enbrethiliel - I agree with what you have said.
ReplyDeleteE and T, they don't like themselves, actually. It's all about the self hate that needs to be healed. (Which is why I tried to recommend the excellent Catholic Carmelite Psychologist's website, above.)
ReplyDeleteI know that this is a complicated subject matter, exacerbated by recent Church scandals that have cost both clergy and laity so much on many different levels. But for me, the issue is the content of the man entering the priesthood - something that's almost impossible to determine with absolute exactitude - and something that goes beyond mere sexuality. When I was in dialogue with the Diocese of Las Vegas about entering the seminary, I wanted nothing more than to consecrate my life to God as a priest. Nothing, and I mean NOTHING, came close to that. All other wants, needs, desires were muted without a trace. Celibacy was completely inconsequential because the only thing I desired was God, and anything I had to give up to get there was insignificant. What we need to do is ensure - to the extent that we can - that men who want to be priests have God as their supreme focus and nothing else. If they are in love with God, sexuality, like any other distraction, will evanesce, leaving only a consecrated human being behind. I don't think our plumbing determines our free will or how we choose to conduct ourselves or when we choose to give into sin. With weaker human beings, that certainly might be the case.
ReplyDeleteTom, exactly. Thanks for that.
ReplyDeleteNot to worry Thom and Tom - there have always been gay priests - and always will be... gay monks too.
ReplyDeleteNo doubt.
ReplyDeleteApparently, God can see beyond even when we can't.
Yes, Ted Haggard thinks so. I posted on him for tomorrow. ;)
ReplyDeleteOh lord, buddy. You've outdone yourself. I'm proud of you. :-p
ReplyDelete"If they are in love with God, sexuality, like any other distraction, will evanesce, leaving only a consecrated human being behind. I don't think our plumbing determines our free will or how we choose to conduct ourselves or when we choose to give into sin."
ReplyDeleteTom, I like what you had to say, but I'm not persuaded. I have no doubt that many fine young men go into the priesthood with just the fervent passion to serve God as you describe. No doubt analagous to a young man totally devoted to and adoring of his bride-to-be...yet divorce is common. The years of daily grind; temptations; loneliness; uncritical adoration by parishioners; -- even very fine priests get off track, given those factors. But clearly, given the homosexual nature of most of the scandals, it appears the particular temptations faced by gay priests are less easily resisted.
One's "plumbing", as you put it, doesn't have anything to do with free will per se -- you are correct. One's plumbing determines one's gender, either male of female. But a sexual disorder, which is in one's psychology and not in one's plumbing, does affect free will to some extent, by damaging and weakening the ability to freely choose to resist. Let me use this analogy: if I am afflicted with a disordered, addictive personality, then my ability to refuse or moderate alcohol consumption is impaired.